Rob W 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 "absolute truths" WOW!! Now that is a can of worms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44107 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 "absolute truths" WOW!! Now that is a can of worms I define absolute truth as everything that passes your lips, Rob. Is that not right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21050 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 You've just made a very good post whilst at the same time talked complete cobblers! Well done, quite an achievement. If you ant absolute truths you should try Christianity. Seriously though, I've breezed over a topic that requires at least one volume to discuss properly and not even given it a re-read, despite that I'm fairly sure I haven't said anything wrong, though some of it is obviously open for long debate. What bits do you not agree with in particular? (Why am I asking this when I need to not get into this?) Well like I said it was a good post, but what did it answer? I've forgotten.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 If people were taught about enlightenment and how to think rationally, there would be no need for it. Of course, it's not going to die out overnight, but rather at it's own pace, generation by generation. The dangers are, as I've mentioned, there will be gaps left which will fill with more extreme religions and cults. But these should be minimized - education is the key. Btw Dotbum, I'm sure I read somewhere that France is now the most Godless country on Earth. Fancy that. Wasn't me. They're fucking weirdos, that's about as deep as any sociological debate needs to go on the subject of the French. Regarding what you say above, I certainly think it's possible, but what if we're wrong, what if we are born different enough that a portion of society will never be capable of what seems to straight forward to us? I see rational people every day get frustrated (myself included) at people who seem to be indoctrinated in foolishness, we never learn, what if they can't either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Well, I think religion, at least partly, comes from explaining what science/ worldly knowledge cannot. E.g. a volcano is the wrath of God / the gods. I'm not sure that will ever go away as long as people ponder the meaning of life and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Well like I said it was a good post, but what did it answer? I've forgotten.... It actually started due to Alex and PokerPants questioning my assertion that religion was still necessary and that Catholicism may be the best of a bad bunch, in response to you saying organised religion had outlived its usefulness and was redundant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21050 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 If people were taught about enlightenment and how to think rationally, there would be no need for it. Of course, it's not going to die out overnight, but rather at it's own pace, generation by generation. The dangers are, as I've mentioned, there will be gaps left which will fill with more extreme religions and cults. But these should be minimized - education is the key. Btw Dotbum, I'm sure I read somewhere that France is now the most Godless country on Earth. Fancy that. Wasn't me. They're fucking weirdos, that's about as deep as any sociological debate needs to go on the subject of the French. Regarding what you say above, I certainly think it's possible, but what if we're wrong, what if we are born different enough that a portion of society will never be capable of what seems to straight forward to us? I see rational people every day get frustrated (myself included) at people who seem to be indoctrinated in foolishness, we never learn, what if they can't either? Solution is I become infallible ruler of the entire world, and everybody obeys me, and everything I say or have said is treated as an absolute truth, even after my death. I'll start with this message board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44107 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Can we talk about Israel or terrorists now please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 (edited) Edit, for rents: Never going to happen. Doubt it even happens in your own house Edited September 20, 2006 by alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21050 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Well like I said it was a good post, but what did it answer? I've forgotten.... It actually started due to Alex and PokerPants questioning my assertion that religion was still necessary and that Catholicism may be the best of a bad bunch, in response to you saying organised religion had outlived its usefulness and was redundant. Ah. See post above. The problem is solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21050 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 (edited) Well, we could start an infallible committee..... Ahem. Edited September 20, 2006 by Renton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3788 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Well like I said it was a good post, but what did it answer? I've forgotten.... It actually started due to Alex and PokerPants questioning my assertion that religion was still necessary and that Catholicism may be the best of a bad bunch, in response to you saying organised religion had outlived its usefulness and was redundant. So you think Catholicism is the best of the religions you don't like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 So you think Catholicism is the best of the religions you don't like? Best? As in some sort of Sky One's Top 10 best ways to drug a donkey into bed, best? No. You can read it in context above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob W 0 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 "absolute truths" WOW!! Now that is a can of worms I define absolute truth as everything that passes your lips, Rob. Is that not right? Only when I have on me Infalibilty silk scarf I'm afraid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3902 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Well like I said it was a good post, but what did it answer? I've forgotten.... It actually started due to Alex and PokerPants questioning my assertion that religion was still necessary and that Catholicism may be the best of a bad bunch, in response to you saying organised religion had outlived its usefulness and was redundant. I would say the ban on contraception pretty much disqualifies catholicism from consideration as a useful tool for humanity from the get go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 I would say the ban on contraception pretty much disqualifies catholicism from consideration as a useful tool for humanity from the get go 2.4 children with utter anarchy is also not useful to humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3902 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 I would say the ban on contraception pretty much disqualifies catholicism from consideration as a useful tool for humanity from the get go 2.4 children with utter anarchy is also not useful to humanity. and the relevance of that comment is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 That the issue's maybe slightly more complex than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3902 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 As much as I don't like organised religion and realise there are plenty of us who don't require it, I am convinced there is still a significant number who do need a "higher power", whether it be a bogeyman or just a belief system that helps them avoid the chasm that is the reality of their own death. I don't know whether it's genetic or merely deeply rooted, but the fact that it seems to be deeply rooted in all societies suggests its at least partially the former. In any case it's not going away overnight. So we have to deal with the current reality that society's evolution needs to include some form of organised religion, one which should gradually fade to common sense, respect and reason. As to which religion? I don't know enough about all of them to make a full judgement, but it has to be a major one for practical reasons. Muslimism is obviously archaic and unenlightened even by the standards of organised religion, Judaism, possibly the most enlightened but very insular, I like the intropspection of Buddhism, but was quite disappointed to find its sense of community seemed a bit lacking, I haven't a clue about Hinduism other than to name some of its better known deities, I'd probably have more luck comparing S Club 7 to these other religions. Christianity is very evolved, has rationality and some semblance of philosophical thought, but don't even talk to me about these bat-shit crazy US varieties. I picked Catholicism in spite of its obvious problems just because it might be big enough to win the battle, in an ideal world, I agree, Church of England could well be the best choice, or Catharism? Just so it's clear where I stand, no member of the CoE or Islam ever tried to rape members of my community in the arse. I'm not a fan of RobW infallibility, let alone the Papal Bulls. I don't personally like organised religion, but reckon plenty still need it. Blah, blah, piddle; I hope that made enough sense to answer both Bob l'Eponge and Alex. Ok Ive reread this and your argument seems to be we need religion because religion exists so that proves we need religion because people need to believe in stuff. Then you choose catholicism even though you dont like it because it "might be big enough to win the battle" but what battle I have no idea. My belief is people need education not fairy stories, and I certainly dont think people need vengeful God threats to develope a moral compass. Maybe I just have more faith in humanity than you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4355 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Well, I think religion, at least partly, comes from explaining what science/ worldly knowledge cannot. E.g. a volcano is the wrath of God / the gods. I'm not sure that will ever go away as long as people ponder the meaning of life and so on. I think there are two sides to religion - the sense of where did humans come from and who made the world and then the moral/philosophy side. I think on the former its a dead duck - the actual who or what of the big bang may still be a mystery but everything since then is pretty much explained give or take. Having said that the view which my Mother for one subscribed to that her "god" created the universe 14 billion years ago then kept a benign eye on it is one that though I disagree with it, I can sort of respect. This tends to be the side that frustrates me. Of course people who adhere to Genesis as an actual history are the ones that really get me. Taking the "big three" the idea that a God which created this vast universe and even this world would only care about and reveal himself to a small tribe in one corner of the world seems ludicrous - their subsequent spread is obviously down to politics rather that "righteousness". Looking back its obvious the world would be very different if Alexander hadn't died so young or if the Mongols hadn't turned back. This is the area where I tend to offend people by calling them "unintelligent" or "weak" as I honestly can't see why they can't recognise these obvious "truths". From the moral side once again looking at history I can see how the carrot and stick of heaven and hell would have been needed in "primitive" times. Now though given a more modern sense of society I find the idea that people are taught to be good so as to get a reward to be distasteful at best. I don't accept that "morality" needs a religion - societies have developed where the two are not completely linked - certainly the development of western Europe in the last couple of centuries includes decent morals built on at the most an agnostic point of view. Here also it becomes clear why the religions are "losing ground" in educated countries because of their refusal to evolve - for example the vast majority of decent people now realise that homosexuality isn't an abomination but the dogma of the main men can't be changed easily - similarly on contraception. Those who vehemently refuse to "modernise" also tend to be the loudest which drives people away. Given the fact that all of the things that God used to credit for like good luck and bad in terms of natural phenonema are now explained, and that the carrot and stick of heaven and hell are no longer needed imo to teach morals I don't see any necessary place for him moving into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Ok Ive reread this and your argument seems to be we need religion because religion exists so that proves we need religion because people need to believe in stuff. Then you choose catholicism even though you dont like it because it "might be big enough to win the battle" but what battle I have no idea. My belief is people need education not fairy stories, and I certainly dont think people need vengeful God threats to develope a moral compass. Maybe I just have more faith in humanity than you Have you been drinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3902 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Ok Ive reread this and your argument seems to be we need religion because religion exists so that proves we need religion because people need to believe in stuff. Then you choose catholicism even though you dont like it because it "might be big enough to win the battle" but what battle I have no idea. My belief is people need education not fairy stories, and I certainly dont think people need vengeful God threats to develope a moral compass. Maybe I just have more faith in humanity than you Have you been drinking? A bit harsh coming from the person who came up with this I don't know whether it's genetic or merely deeply rooted, but the fact that it seems to be deeply rooted in all societies suggests its at least partially the former. which seems to say its either deep rooted or genetic, but is deep rooted which proves its genetic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 The fact that all societies, some of them independently, have created very similar things suggests that it can not just have come from nowhere, by chance, and become deep seeded. What is your understanding of evolutionary psychology? Have you been drinking, because you're coming across like an obnoxious arsehole, to be honest. I was trying to give you some credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4355 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 "Sides" aside I didn't think anything Bob said was as bad as you're suggesting. I'd put the need for supernatural fairy stories down to simple ignorance which was pretty widespread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spongebob toonpants 3902 Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 The fact that all societies, some of them independently, have created very similar things suggests that it can not just have come from nowhere, by chance, and become deep seeded. What is your understanding of evolutionary psychology? Have you been drinking, because you're coming across like an obnoxious arsehole, to be honest. I was trying to give you some credit. I dont want to be obnoxious, sorry if I came across that way, my intention was good natured. I enjoy your posts but I didnt really think you were expressing yourself very clearly. I think it is in human nature to search for answers, and higher power or powers is an answer that allows the human mind to resolve questions that seemed or seem unexplainable. The human brain is constantly ordering and rationalising information, we make sense of the world by cognitive mapping. God is part of that process I read an interseting article a few months ago about this , I will try to find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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