Nicky Butt

[Papa Lazaru 0]

And here are those stats.

 

Newcastle's results when two of Bellamy, Robert & Kluivert played

P 29, W 17, D 6, L 6.

 

Newcastle's results with one or none of Bellamy, Robert & Kluivert

P 28, W 8, D 10, L 10.

 

Baring in mind two of those 8 wins came against Coventry & Southampton, the Heerenveen away one coincided with Robert coming on, and in 3 of the other 5 wins either Robert or Kluivert scored, then it doesn't justify their sales IMO.

16135[/snapback]

 

Ah but you're merely using facts and results to back your argument, what good is that!!!

 

Expect it to be ripped to bits by people still unwilling to accept Souness is shite, as mindless stats and not taking into account the "50 goals a season Robert costs us" (despite wingers being responsible for next to no goals at all) and several mentions of Kluivert being a fat, lazy mercenary!

[LeazesMag 0]

And here are those stats.

 

Newcastle's results when two of Bellamy, Robert & Kluivert played

P 29, W 17, D 6, L 6.

 

Newcastle's results with one or none of Bellamy, Robert & Kluivert

P 28, W 8, D 10, L 10.

 

Baring in mind two of those 8 wins came against Coventry & Southampton, the Heerenveen away one coincided with Robert coming on, and in 3 of the other 5 wins either Robert or Kluivert scored, then it doesn't justify their sales IMO.

16135[/snapback]

 

without Bellamy, Robert, Kluivert.

 

Relegation form if ever you saw it. And relegation standard of performance too, which no one can deny.

Edited August 22, 2005 by LeazesMag

[shakermaker 0]

I'm 100% sure we would have won if Bellamy and Robert had played. But of course as you say we are better off with 4.5 m quid to replace them with aren't we ....

15836[/snapback]

how are you so sure...last year we only drew with norwich,early season with bellamy and robert in the team.

[Optimistic Nut 187]

Exactly Leazes. Replace Milner, Shearer & N'Zogbia with Bellamy, Kluivert & Robert in that game on Saturday, and we'd have won easily.

[LeazesMag 0]

I'm 100% sure we would have won if Bellamy and Robert had played. But of course as you say we are better off with 4.5 m quid to replace them with aren't we ....

15836[/snapback]

how are you so sure...last year we only drew with norwich,early season with bellamy and robert in the team.

16177[/snapback]

 

did you see the game ?

 

Or are you going to make excuses for Souness ?

 

Have you looked at last seasons table BTW, and compared it to the 3 years previously, and why is the Norwich game last season relevant to the game on Saturday.

 

We also played in the intertoto, [ rather than the UEFA or Champions League, such is our fall under Souness,] and should also be a bit sharper and fitter like the last time we played in the intertoto under Bobby Robson.

 

Are you pleased that Souness had kicked out 2 forwards and replaced them with 3 midfield players and a defender in 11 months ?

Edited August 23, 2005 by LeazesMag

[Gemmill 46013]

And here are those stats.

 

Newcastle's results when two of Bellamy, Robert & Kluivert played

P 29, W 17, D 6, L 6.

 

Newcastle's results with one or none of Bellamy, Robert & Kluivert

P 28, W 8, D 10, L 10.

 

Baring in mind two of those 8 wins came against Coventry & Southampton, the Heerenveen away one coincided with Robert coming on, and in 3 of the other 5 wins either Robert or Kluivert scored, then it doesn't justify their sales IMO.

16135[/snapback]

 

Ah but you're merely using facts and results to back your argument, what good is that!!!

 

Expect it to be ripped to bits by people still unwilling to accept Souness is shite, as mindless stats and not taking into account the "50 goals a season Robert costs us" (despite wingers being responsible for next to no goals at all) and several mentions of Kluivert being a fat, lazy mercenary!

16146[/snapback]

 

Funny that when "facts and results" were used on the other board (on the Au Revoir... thread) to prove that over the course of the last two seasons Robert made next to fuck all difference to our results, they were roundly ignored by the Robert-lovers. I can't be arsed to go and find them, but they're there.

 

Blackburn were well beaten by West Ham in a game in which Bellamy played for them, and Portsmouth's results with Robert in the starting line-up aren't looking too good. If we're playing fantasy what-if's, surely this should be taken into consideration?

[Jackies the Lad 0]

Let us all be true to ourselves here and answer a few simple questions, where did we finish last season? Were we in decline and what was the overall trend to our performances under SOURNESS? I'll tell you the answer the lowest we have finished in the PL and guess what if you add the last 2 results on a cumulative basis we would be heading further down the table. Now please be realistic and answer this one, what do you expect to get in the next two games?

 

There is little potential for success never mind simply scoring any goals, no width, weakened side through inept comings and goings and of course the usual injuries, but, hey, we're only two games into the season, nothing much to worry about.

 

Whilst a few of the comings have been ok the outgoings leave me totally bemused, but I guess it is something to accept with such an inept fool of a manager in Mr SOURNESS.

[Guest alex]

I have a strange sense of deja vu.

[sweetleftpeg 0]

We should of brought in a quality left sided player to replace Robert, a massive failure imo especially as Souness must have been planning to get rid of Robert well in advance of when he did. However, I'm still glad we did get rid. I was a Robert supporter, but after the Marsaille game I washed my hands of him. He wasn't the way forward, and even if we'd brought in an excellent manager I'd be looking at them getting rid. Half arsed wingers no longer win you things.

 

I'm sorry like, but we can't go through this season after every defeat saying 'I wish Robert and Bellamy were here, we would have won.' You don't know that, Robert was also a liability. He could have cost us goals, but you know what, I don't know that either. Christ, I wish Gascoigne and Beardsley were out there, we'd piss it.

[Guest alex]

Pretty much the way I feel, although I expect someone to post some statistics to 'prove' me wrong The biggest problem with losing the two players mentioned is that adequate replacements haven't been brought in.

[LeazesMag 0]

And here are those stats.

 

Newcastle's results when two of Bellamy, Robert & Kluivert played

P 29, W 17, D 6, L 6.

 

Newcastle's results with one or none of Bellamy, Robert & Kluivert

P 28, W 8, D 10, L 10.

 

Baring in mind two of those 8 wins came against Coventry & Southampton, the Heerenveen away one coincided with Robert coming on, and in 3 of the other 5 wins either Robert or Kluivert scored, then it doesn't justify their sales IMO.

16135[/snapback]

 

Ah but you're merely using facts and results to back your argument, what good is that!!!

 

Expect it to be ripped to bits by people still unwilling to accept Souness is shite, as mindless stats and not taking into account the "50 goals a season Robert costs us" (despite wingers being responsible for next to no goals at all) and several mentions of Kluivert being a fat, lazy mercenary!

16146[/snapback]

 

Funny that when "facts and results" were used on the other board (on the Au Revoir... thread) to prove that over the course of the last two seasons Robert made next to fuck all difference to our results, they were roundly ignored by the Robert-lovers. I can't be arsed to go and find them, but they're there.

 

Blackburn were well beaten by West Ham in a game in which Bellamy played for them, and Portsmouth's results with Robert in the starting line-up aren't looking too good. If we're playing fantasy what-if's, surely this should be taken into consideration?

16193[/snapback]

 

It's early days though Gemmil, what the concern is, is how much of an effect these 2 players have/had on Newcastle and there's no doubt that we are worse off without them. Especially Bellamy. You can also expect Blackburn to finish above us this season too, with Bellamy making a difference to them as he did to Newcastle, IMHO. And maybe Portsmouth too unless Shepherd finds some more money to bale out his arsehole manager who has spent a lot of money and got it all wrong.

 

While no one is arguing about the quality of Emre and Parker, Souness knew since January [and earlier ] he was going to ship out 2 forwards, so why did he not gear his transfer budget towards replacing them ? Why did he continually make it known to everyone in football he washed his hands of them and enable us to get taken to the cleaners when moving them on ?

 

He thinks he's hard, but he isn't, he's an idiot. Anyone with any sense would have kept playing Bellamy for the good of the club, talked him up , raised his transfer fee and kept his thoughts to himself. Now everyone has lost, us, the club and yes Souness. He hasn't made the sales that would have increased his own transfer budget due to his own stupidity.

 

As has pointed too, this is a results business. You can't hide behind results, and the league table tells everything.

Edited August 23, 2005 by LeazesMag

[shakermaker 0]

I'm 100% sure we would have won if Bellamy and Robert had played. But of course as you say we are better off with 4.5 m quid to replace them with aren't we ....

15836[/snapback]

how are you so sure...last year we only drew with norwich,early season with bellamy and robert in the team.

16177[/snapback]

 

did you see the game ?

 

Or are you going to make excuses for Souness ?

 

Have you looked at last seasons table BTW, and compared it to the 3 years previously, and why is the Norwich game last season relevant to the game on Saturday.

 

We also played in the intertoto, [ rather than the UEFA or Champions League, such is our fall under Souness,] and should also be a bit sharper and fitter like the last time we played in the intertoto under Bobby Robson.

 

Are you pleased that Souness had kicked out 2 forwards and replaced them with 3 midfield players and a defender in 11 months ?

16187[/snapback]

 

yes i was at the game and yes i balme souness for the result as i think even with the players we had out there we should have won and his tactics blew it.

 

yes i know about our position over the last few seasons,but to more as important was the slide in performances from easter 2004.

 

no i'm not pleased souness has only got in midfielders when forwards are needed,but is that entirely his fault or fat freds ? an argument can be made to the extent that you should only sell after you have the replacement but it also rings true that in order to get the replacemnet you first need the cash(fat freds court again).

 

i compare saturday with the norwich game as i see west ham as being slightly better,similar length into the season,not a perfect comparisson and to be honest it baresno relation in reality,a bit like saying we would deffo have won had players x and y played.

[shakermaker 0]

i'd also like to qualify a bit of what i posted earlier by saying i think we needed the midfielders also,we already had plenty of numbers there but a distinct lack of quality.

Edited August 23, 2005 by shakermaker

[Papa Lazaru 0]

Funny that when "facts and results" were used on the other board (on the Au Revoir... thread) to prove that over the course of the last two seasons Robert made next to fuck all difference to our results, they were roundly ignored by the Robert-lovers. I can't be arsed to go and find them, but they're there.

 

Blackburn were well beaten by West Ham in a game in which Bellamy played for them, and Portsmouth's results with Robert in the starting line-up aren't looking too good. If we're playing fantasy what-if's, surely this should be taken into consideration?

 

I know what you're sayign about Robert but the other stat about Robert is him pretty much always outscoring and getting more assists than all our other midfielders even in his bad spells and that wins matches.

 

And as for Blackburn and Portsmouth, their results are the product of 11 men and subs, plus the manager and opposition, just as ours are. And its my belief that we have a better keeper, defence and parts of midfield than those two teams, but lack the likes of Robert/Bellamy/Kluivert who would provide us with creativity and goals to go with what attributes we do have.

 

Putting aside your problems with Robert, Bellamy and Kluivert(?) for a moment and having already said in another thread how you aren't one of these people who ever wants us to lose can you honestly tell me you wouldn't have been happier to play that West Ham game with even two of those players in the line up, there can be no doubt at all we'd be more likely to win it.

[sweetleftpeg 0]

I think the entire Fat Fred era has been marked by a total lack of long term vision and stability. It's always felt like every decision the board make is to cover their backs for the here and now rather than thinking about the future. Sacking Robson is the biggest proof of this. Someone should have been lined up, rather than arrogantly thinking we'd be able to prise good managers away from their clubs. Telling him privately his job is safe then publicly telling the rags he's leaving was a massive fuck up. He should have been asked to become an ambassador for the club, and asked to help bring in his replacement. Add to this the bollocks about 'you'll be pleaasently surprised who wants to come here' etc etc and it just sounds like a man who hasn't got a fucking clue what he's doing.

[Papa Lazaru 0]

I think the entire Fat Fred era has been marked by a total lack of long term vision and stability. It's always felt like every decision the board make is to cover their backs for the here and now rather than thinking about the future. Sacking Robson is the biggest proof of this. Someone should have been lined up, rather than arrogantly thinking we'd be able to prise good managers away from their clubs. Telling him privately his job is safe then publicly telling the rags he's leaving was a massive fuck up. He should have been asked to become an ambassador for the club, and asked to help bring in his replacement. Add to this the bollocks about 'you'll be pleaasently surprised who wants to come here' etc etc and it just sounds like a man who hasn't got a fucking clue what he's doing.

16337[/snapback]

 

Come on now, we are the second biggest club in the world and everybody wants to manage and play for us, in fact you wouldn't believe who is desperate to come here!!!

 

The worrying thing is if Shepherd believes all this kind of crap he comes out with then we are run by a dillusional lunatic who leaves us a mess regularly because he thinks these things will happen. And if he doesn't really believe any of this then we are run by a bullshitter who is massively lazy and incompitent because he knows fine well these things won't happen and so should be working to sort them out!

[LeazesMag 0]

I'm 100% sure we would have won if Bellamy and Robert had played. But of course as you say we are better off with 4.5 m quid to replace them with aren't we ....

15836[/snapback]

how are you so sure...last year we only drew with norwich,early season with bellamy and robert in the team.

16177[/snapback]

 

did you see the game ?

 

Or are you going to make excuses for Souness ?

 

Have you looked at last seasons table BTW, and compared it to the 3 years previously, and why is the Norwich game last season relevant to the game on Saturday.

 

We also played in the intertoto, [ rather than the UEFA or Champions League, such is our fall under Souness,] and should also be a bit sharper and fitter like the last time we played in the intertoto under Bobby Robson.

 

Are you pleased that Souness had kicked out 2 forwards and replaced them with 3 midfield players and a defender in 11 months ?

16187[/snapback]

 

yes i was at the game and yes i balme souness for the result as i think even with the players we had out there we should have won and his tactics blew it.

 

yes i know about our position over the last few seasons,but to more as important was the slide in performances from easter 2004.

 

no i'm not pleased souness has only got in midfielders when forwards are needed, but is that entirely his fault or fat freds ? an argument can be made to the extent that you should only sell after you have the replacement but it also rings true that in order to get the replacemnet you first need the cash(fat freds court again).

 

i compare saturday with the norwich game as i see west ham as being slightly better,similar length into the season,not a perfect comparisson and to be honest it baresno relation in reality,a bit like saying we would deffo have won had players x and y played.

16294[/snapback]

 

of course it's Souness's fault. How can it be Shepherds fault, do you think Shepherd targetted 2 midfield players to replace 3 forwards, on top of Faye and Boumsong who had already been brought into the club ?

 

Of course you should buy before you sell if you are short in an area and overborne in another. If a manager is given x amount of money to spend on a team, he targets the areas he thinks is particularly weak as a priority, doesn't he ?? Well a "proper" manager would anyway.

 

As Souness knew he was binning Robert, Bellamy, Kluivert and Shearer was coming to the end of the road, it's obvious where he should have targetted.

 

If he wanted Emre and Parker, he should have binned Viana, Dyer and Jenas, or others from overborne areas to raise further cash but as Dyer is his golden boy and model professional it seems his judgement is fucked up even more than his priorities.

Edited August 23, 2005 by LeazesMag

[Phil K 0]

Can't be proven either way, but I'm pretty sure we would have won yesterday with a wide man and free kick taker par excellence like Robert. But hey, we're much better off without the lazy French tw@t, aren't we?

15835[/snapback]

In a word - NO.

[shakermaker 0]

I'm 100% sure we would have won if Bellamy and Robert had played. But of course as you say we are better off with 4.5 m quid to replace them with aren't we ....

15836[/snapback]

how are you so sure...last year we only drew with norwich,early season with bellamy and robert in the team.

16177[/snapback]

 

did you see the game ?

 

Or are you going to make excuses for Souness ?

 

Have you looked at last seasons table BTW, and compared it to the 3 years previously, and why is the Norwich game last season relevant to the game on Saturday.

 

We also played in the intertoto, [ rather than the UEFA or Champions League, such is our fall under Souness,] and should also be a bit sharper and fitter like the last time we played in the intertoto under Bobby Robson.

 

Are you pleased that Souness had kicked out 2 forwards and replaced them with 3 midfield players and a defender in 11 months ?

16187[/snapback]

 

yes i was at the game and yes i balme souness for the result as i think even with the players we had out there we should have won and his tactics blew it.

 

yes i know about our position over the last few seasons,but to more as important was the slide in performances from easter 2004.

 

no i'm not pleased souness has only got in midfielders when forwards are needed, but is that entirely his fault or fat freds ? an argument can be made to the extent that you should only sell after you have the replacement but it also rings true that in order to get the replacemnet you first need the cash(fat freds court again).

 

i compare saturday with the norwich game as i see west ham as being slightly better,similar length into the season,not a perfect comparisson and to be honest it baresno relation in reality,a bit like saying we would deffo have won had players x and y played.

16294[/snapback]

 

of course it's Souness's fault. How can it be Shepherds fault, do you think Shepherd targetted 2 midfield players to replace 3 forwards, on top of Faye and Boumsong who had already been brought into the club ?

 

Of course you should buy before you sell if you are short in an area and overborne in another. If a manager is given x amount of money to spend on a team, he targets the areas he thinks is particularly weak as a priority, doesn't he ?? Well a "proper" manager would anyway.

 

As Souness knew he was binning Robert, Bellamy, Kluivert and Shearer was coming to the end of the road, it's obvious where he should have targetted.

 

If he wanted Emre and Parker, he should have binned Viana, Dyer and Jenas, or others from overborne areas to raise further cash but as Dyer is his golden boy and model professional it seems his judgement is fucked up even more than his priorities.

16365[/snapback]

 

 

thtas where we differ,i say target where your problems are and we had as many problems in midfield as up front so when players come available in either position get them...we'd be in much the same position with 2 new forwards and last seasons apathetic midfield.(he's been trying to bin viana but a lack of takers,i reckon a good bid could have seen jenas away in june aswell)

 

it's quite possible the manager was given "x" amount to spend,but who done the sums to arrive at "x",what if the chairman said to the manager "yes you can buy those 2 midfielders as when we sell these we'll have enough for 2 forwards"-only it didn't work out that way.

 

 

do you seriously think they'll go after players in order,ie we need 2 forwards so we'll forget whoever else comes up until we get them "?rememeber bids were made for anelka and boa morte before parker and emre.by the sounds of it fred(on who's advice i know not-maybe souness's)has decided on certain values for certain players and he wont budge,remember when he got woodgate we all thought he got a great deal,it now seems like he believes he can do it all the time.

[LeazesMag 0]

I'm 100% sure we would have won if Bellamy and Robert had played. But of course as you say we are better off with 4.5 m quid to replace them with aren't we ....

15836[/snapback]

how are you so sure...last year we only drew with norwich,early season with bellamy and robert in the team.

16177[/snapback]

 

did you see the game ?

 

Or are you going to make excuses for Souness ?

 

Have you looked at last seasons table BTW, and compared it to the 3 years previously, and why is the Norwich game last season relevant to the game on Saturday.

 

We also played in the intertoto, [ rather than the UEFA or Champions League, such is our fall under Souness,] and should also be a bit sharper and fitter like the last time we played in the intertoto under Bobby Robson.

 

Are you pleased that Souness had kicked out 2 forwards and replaced them with 3 midfield players and a defender in 11 months ?

16187[/snapback]

 

yes i was at the game and yes i balme souness for the result as i think even with the players we had out there we should have won and his tactics blew it.

 

yes i know about our position over the last few seasons,but to more as important was the slide in performances from easter 2004.

 

no i'm not pleased souness has only got in midfielders when forwards are needed, but is that entirely his fault or fat freds ? an argument can be made to the extent that you should only sell after you have the replacement but it also rings true that in order to get the replacemnet you first need the cash(fat freds court again).

 

i compare saturday with the norwich game as i see west ham as being slightly better,similar length into the season,not a perfect comparisson and to be honest it baresno relation in reality,a bit like saying we would deffo have won had players x and y played.

16294[/snapback]

 

of course it's Souness's fault. How can it be Shepherds fault, do you think Shepherd targetted 2 midfield players to replace 3 forwards, on top of Faye and Boumsong who had already been brought into the club ?

 

Of course you should buy before you sell if you are short in an area and overborne in another. If a manager is given x amount of money to spend on a team, he targets the areas he thinks is particularly weak as a priority, doesn't he ?? Well a "proper" manager would anyway.

 

As Souness knew he was binning Robert, Bellamy, Kluivert and Shearer was coming to the end of the road, it's obvious where he should have targetted.

 

If he wanted Emre and Parker, he should have binned Viana, Dyer and Jenas, or others from overborne areas to raise further cash but as Dyer is his golden boy and model professional it seems his judgement is fucked up even more than his priorities.

16365[/snapback]

 

 

thtas where we differ,i say target where your problems are and we had as many problems in midfield as up front so when players come available in either position get them...we'd be in much the same position with 2 new forwards and last seasons apathetic midfield.(he's been trying to bin viana but a lack of takers,i reckon a good bid could have seen jenas away in june aswell)

 

it's quite possible the manager was given "x" amount to spend,but who done the sums to arrive at "x",what if the chairman said to the manager "yes you can buy those 2 midfielders as when we sell these we'll have enough for 2 forwards"-only it didn't work out that way.

 

do you seriously think they'll go after players in order,ie we need 2 forwards so we'll forget whoever else comes up until we get them "?rememeber bids were made for anelka and boa morte before parker and emre.by the sounds of it fred(on who's advice i know not-maybe souness's)has decided on certain values for certain players and he wont budge,remember when he got woodgate we all thought he got a great deal,it now seems like he believes he can do it all the time.

16829[/snapback]

 

I understand what you are saying. But I say that as he decided to change the midfield before the forwards it made it more imperative he kept the forwards he had until he had sorted his midfield.

 

I don't give a flying fuck what his personal problem was with Bellamy and Robert. If he puts that before the best interests of the club - which he has - he should have been sacked as soon as it became obvious. Which is within weeks of walking into the club.

 

He also should have been sacked for assaulting a member of his staff on the training ground.

 

Have you listened to the pathetic cunt now, complaining he needs "2 players who can unlock doors". The stupid bastard had 2 players who unlocked doors, but won't take responsibility or accept the fact he has has fucked up by letting them both go.

 

Some of us predicted he would do this ie take the club backwards and downwards and blame everyone but himself for it. This is the first of many times you will see him do this, if he is not sacked soon by the thick fat twat who appointed him in the first place, as he will soon be blaming referees, linesman, the FA for changing times of games, the weather, the state of the pitch......anything but his own fucking incompetence for our possible and totally realistic relegation, in spite of the skyboys who haven't experienced it before thinking it's impossible for NUFC. It bloody well is.

[shakermaker 0]

the club bid for forwards before midfelders.

 

he had a personal problem with bellamy not robert,wity robert the problem was the other was the other way round,he couldnt understand why souness was reluctant to play him even though he was playing crap.with bellamy it was a dicipline problem and any many worth his salt would have done tha same thing.

 

 

assault on the training pitch...ha fucking ha,bellamy would have been sacked inside a fortnight,or since souness's reign statrted how about the chair throwing,and do you still think bowyer should be here ????

 

like you i'm waiting for the forwards we need,and if they come we will probably have a better team than he started with but a weaker squad...we both know you need both to get anywhere.

[LeazesMag 0]

the club bid for forwards before midfelders.

 

he had a personal problem with bellamy not robert,wity robert the problem was the other was the other way round,he couldnt understand why souness was reluctant to play him even though he was playing crap.with bellamy it was a dicipline problem and any many worth his salt would have done tha same thing.

 

assault on the training pitch...ha fucking ha,bellamy would have been sacked inside a fortnight,or since souness's reign statrted how about the chair throwing,and do you still think bowyer should be here ????

 

like you i'm waiting for the forwards we need,and if they come we will probably have a better team than he started with but a weaker squad...we both know you need both to get anywhere.

16869[/snapback]

 

I don't care if he had a personal problem with Bellamy, this is a football club playing for big stakes and he is paid a lot of money to manage it. In all walks of life people have to put up with peope they have personal issues with. A proper manager would have made sure he had a top class replacement before selling a top class player. Souness assaulted him on the training ground and Bellamy should have hit him back with a big heavy hammer.

 

I'm not against him selling Robert, just again, the fact he has spent his transfer money on players to replace the ones he's let go in every position bar the positions he needed.

Edited August 24, 2005 by LeazesMag

[Guest alex]

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[LeazesMag 0]

Fleetwood Mac, 1976