Venables and Thompson

[adios 717]

So are you suggesting that we should be killing 10 year old kids for commiting very serious crimes?

166020[/snapback]

 

In the face, with a brick.

[peasepud 59]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,...2271183,00.html

 

heres the article, read it with an open mind.

[rikko 20]

The 2 10 year olds arent as evil as some of you are making out, the fact they tried to cover their tracks by making it seem like a train killed him, shows that they knew they had done something wrong.

 

The blame for it, well it has to go into their upbringing which is with the parents. Something obviously went terribly wrong there.

 

But if their real identities were unveiled they'd be attacked and probably killed straight away, which shouldn't happen. And as pud pointed out they won't be getting all the benefits some people think. They are also banned from seeing their family or friends for the rest of their lives.

 

Is this punishment harsh enough, I don't know, i'm not in a position to judge and neither is anyone here. All we can do is trust the "experts" placed in charge.

[Kid Dynamite 7167]

we arent talking about 2 10year olds killing somebody. we are talking about them systematically torturing, molesting and then brutally killing him. Im sure he was screaming hysterically at the time, crying for his mother and they kept going, stuffing batteries in his mouth!!! That is just sick and fucking evil.

 

Lets forget about the rights of the poor maladjusted murderers for a minute and lets think about james bulgers terror he went through and the whole familys life that will never be the same again. Thats where my sympathy goes im afraid

[adios 717]

The 2 10 year olds arent as evil as some of you are making out, the fact they tried to cover their tracks by making it seem like a train killed him, shows that they knew they had done something wrong.

 

The blame for it, well it has to go into their upbringing which is with the parents. Something obviously went terribly wrong there.

 

But if their real identities were unveiled they'd be attacked and probably killed straight away, which shouldn't happen. And as pud pointed out they won't be getting all the benefits some people think. They are also banned from seeing their family or friends for the rest of their lives.

 

Is this punishment harsh enough, I don't know, i'm not in a position to judge and neither is anyone here. All we can do is trust the "experts" placed in charge.

166026[/snapback]

 

You may believe that, but I don't. We live in a society where we should all have a right to be involved in these things, it's just a shame that so many have forgone their right in exchange for blissful ignorance.

 

All criminals should be killed in the face with a brick, or harder.

 

EDIT: btw I think there might be an argument that them trying to cover it up actually makes it worse, not better.

Edited July 27, 2006 by DotBum

[ewerk 31195]

Jamie Bulger won't get another chance, in fact he never even got his first chance and neither should these cunts. As I said before this article is very one-sided and not to be taken at face value.

[adios 717]

Jamie Bulger won't get another chance, in fact he never even got his first chance and neither should these cunts. As I said before this article is very one-sided and not to be taken at face value.

166033[/snapback]

 

By that logic all murderers should be murdered? It's a given that frequenters of coffee emporiums should follow suit, but where do you draw the line, manslaughter? Full shariah law?

[rikko 20]

we arent talking about 2 10year olds killing somebody. we are talking about them systematically torturing, molesting and then brutally killing him. Im sure he was screaming hysterically at the time, crying for his mother and they kept going, stuffing batteries in his mouth!!! That is just sick and fucking evil.

 

Lets forget about the rights of the poor maladjusted murderers for a minute and lets think about james bulgers terror he went through and the whole familys life that will never be the same again. Thats where my sympathy goes im afraid

166030[/snapback]

 

 

I agree it is sick and evil, but do you really genuinly think that they should've been executed by the state for thier actions as you implied earlier?

 

I personally do not, what they did was horrific and hopefully will never ever be repeated anywhere by people of any age. I have large amounts of sympathy for the bulger family as they've gone through something that no one should ever have to go through. But at the same time how can we sanction the killing of 10 year old kids and not the actions of harold shipman who coldly and systematically killed a hell of alot of vulnerable old folk?

[ewerk 31195]

Not all murder deserves the death penalty and I do believe in rehabilition in certain cases.

 

Rikko said that the fact they tried to make it look like an accident shows that they knew it was wrong so they're not evil, to me it shows that they knew it was wrong but did it anyway and so should accept more responsibility for their actions. I would have liked to seen them given life behind bars, proper life with no chance of parole.

Edited July 27, 2006 by ewerk

[Craig 6700]

I know you guys are having this discussion mainly with Rik, but I want to clarify that I don't for one minute condone or excuse what they did. What they did to Jamie Bulger is pure evil and if there is a world after this one, it's going to be hot and firey for the pair of them.

 

My gripe is with the blame - yes they are to blame, but then so are the people who were role models for them too!

[rikko 20]

Is this punishment harsh enough, I don't know, i'm not in a position to judge and neither is anyone here. All we can do is trust the "experts" placed in charge.

166026[/snapback]

 

You may believe that, but I don't. We live in a society where we should all have a right to be involved in these things, it's just a shame that so many have forgone their right in exchange for blissful ignorance.

 

All criminals should be killed in the face with a brick, or harder.

 

EDIT: btw I think there might be an argument that them trying to cover it up actually makes it worse, not better.

166032[/snapback]

 

The point of the comment is that none of us know the full facts on their mental state, what they are like, how they have been in prison etc. Not that we don't have the right to question. I don't feel confident in deciding things unless i have the full facts infront of me. If you feel confident in doing so then thats your perogative, rash decisions based on emotion and not fact should have no place in the law or in sentencing.

[ewerk 31195]

My gripe is with the blame - yes they are to blame, but then so are the people who were role models for them too!

166037[/snapback]

 

I'll agree that Thompson's father walking out on him and the sustained sexual abuse he suffered must have fucked him up in some way but to do what they did is incomphrensible and its hard to comment on the motivations for it.

[rikko 20]

Not all murder deserves the death penalty and I do believe in rehabilition in certain cases.

 

Rikko said that the fact they tried to make it look like an accident shows that they knew it was wrong so they're not evil, to me it shows that they knew it was wrong but did it anyway and so should accept more responsibility for their actions. I would have liked to seen them given life behind bars, proper life with no chance of parole.

166036[/snapback]

 

 

I'm no child psychologist, in fact my training in that area is absolute zero, but they were 10 at the time, can you honestly expect a 10 year old to take full responsibility for their actions? Did you at that age? If they were full blown adults i'd expect them to in prison for their rest fo their natural lives. Since they were so young i am prepared to give them another chance.

[Kid Dynamite 7167]

Theres an article on snopes regarding a rumour that 4weeks ago an 8 year old girl was raped and murdered in australia and that the man arrested for the murder was either venables or thompson who had been relocated over there! They are yet to agree whether its true or false.

[ewerk 31195]

Can you honestly expect a 10 year old to take full responsibility for their actions? Did you at that age? If they were full blown adults i'd expect them to in prison for their rest fo their natural lives. Since they were so young i am prepared to give them another chance.

166040[/snapback]

 

They knew it was wrong so they had the mens rea and so should have had much harsher sentences. I'm not willing to give them another chance just yet, as you say their age has to be taken into account and thats why death perhaps isn't the best option for them.

 

Its this shit article that gets me.

 

they had become role models for the younger detainees coming to their units.

 

they had been detained, deprived of their liberty as a punishment, separated from their families and denied the chance of a normal childhood and adolescence. Yet they were still able to learn and evolve and reach maturity as stable young men.

 

During the trial in October 1993 he asked his parents if they thought James was in the courtroom too. No, his mother said, James was in heaven.

 

This behaviour was far more than an indication of Venables’s guilty feelings, for it also hinted at the lasting traumatic effect of the trial on both boys, who were just 11 when they sat in the raised-up dock before the judge at Preston Crown Court and were forced to listen, in painstaking, repetitive detail to the terrible things they had done, all the while aware of the intensity with which they were being observed by everyone around them

 

Thompson spent the first five minutes of one of his earliest sessions of therapy sobbing over the death of one of the rabbits in his unit

 

In fact I could just quote the whole fucking thing, they are treating these two murderers as heroes who have come through an awful ordeal and should be applauded for what they've done. The article is a mockery and designed to do nothing more than go against the grain.

[Kid Dynamite 7167]

I have just been accepted for a new job very closely related to this field. So maybe my opinions on the matter will change over time.

[luckypierre 0]

My gripe is with the blame - yes they are to blame, but then so are the people who were role models for them too!

166037[/snapback]

 

Their role model would have to Ghengis Khan. They might have had a shitty upbringing but so have plenty of others and some a hell of a lot worse yet havent committed such a crime. At 10 years old a kid knows its wrong to say shoplift.. they knew exactly what they were doing.. they knew the difference between right and wrong. Doesnt matter if they were 10 or 20, they are responsible for their actions.

 

Pud, as for commenting on the 'success' of their rehabilitation I'd rather wait until they're dead and we know for sure.... but even then we probably wouldnt.

Edited July 27, 2006 by luckypierre

[adios 717]

In the course of an otherwise highly favourable report, observing that Thompson had “shown significantly more progress in terms of general maturity, educational attainment and behaviour than the average child in secure care I come across”, the expert had expressed “some concern” that Thompson showed a degree of superiority, was manipulative and emotionally withdrawn. He had also shown partial features of a psychopathic personality, though certainly not enough to diagnose him as a psychopath.

 

The parole-board members were not convinced by the psychologist’s findings – the test he had applied was meant to be used on developed adults over 18, yet Thompson had been only 17 at the time of the report. Anyway, such findings were common among young men living in institutions – but they could hardly afford to dismiss the possibilities. They ordered a further report from an even more eminent clinical psychologist, to be carried out in time for the final parole hearings in June 2001.

 

One of many things that struck me about the article, happy not to question the findings of him being significantly more mature, but the one negative aspect of the report being diminished because he was 17, not 18 when the evaluation took place? These figures are arbitrary at the best of times but the glaring irony there is hard to miss.

 

Generally I think the debate is more credible than the article. It's such an extreme event that would knock the most ardent believer of any paradigm. Well, it should, if it doesn't I'd be slightly worried.

Edited July 27, 2006 by DotBum

[adios 717]

I'll agree that Thompson's father walking out on him and the sustained sexual abuse he suffered must have fucked him up in some way but to do what they did is incomphrensible and its hard to comment on the motivations for it.

166039[/snapback]

 

Offering that up as any form of excuse is deeply offensive to children of single parent families or victims of abuse, who have somehow refrained from battering an infant to death.

[peasepud 59]

Can you honestly expect a 10 year old to take full responsibility for their actions? Did you at that age? If they were full blown adults i'd expect them to in prison for their rest fo their natural lives. Since they were so young i am prepared to give them another chance.

166040[/snapback]

 

They knew it was wrong so they had the mens rea and so should have had much harsher sentences. I'm not willing to give them another chance just yet, as you say their age has to be taken into account and thats why death perhaps isn't the best option for them.

 

Its this shit article that gets me.

 

they had become role models for the younger detainees coming to their units.

 

they had been detained, deprived of their liberty as a punishment, separated from their families and denied the chance of a normal childhood and adolescence. Yet they were still able to learn and evolve and reach maturity as stable young men.

 

During the trial in October 1993 he asked his parents if they thought James was in the courtroom too. No, his mother said, James was in heaven.

 

This behaviour was far more than an indication of Venables’s guilty feelings, for it also hinted at the lasting traumatic effect of the trial on both boys, who were just 11 when they sat in the raised-up dock before the judge at Preston Crown Court and were forced to listen, in painstaking, repetitive detail to the terrible things they had done, all the while aware of the intensity with which they were being observed by everyone around them

 

Thompson spent the first five minutes of one of his earliest sessions of therapy sobbing over the death of one of the rabbits in his unit

 

In fact I could just quote the whole fucking thing, they are treating these two murderers as heroes who have come through an awful ordeal and should be applauded for what they've done. The article is a mockery and designed to do nothing more than go against the grain.

166044[/snapback]

 

 

So basically what you are saying is that if someone commits a crime then they cannot be praised for something good they do later on?

 

The idea of the justice system is to rehabilitate the offender, turning them into a model citizen, something which this article appears to say has happened here. Yes, punishment comes into it but if it was just down to punishing people then we would have executed them.

 

I would never deny that the things they did were horrendous but take a step back and remember they were 10 years old, many ten year olds dont know the full effects of their actions. Now throw in the fact they were subjected to other things in their private lives before this happened and you can start to see they could have a different view of life and its finishing.

 

IF the facts of the article are true then you can see they had remorse even before being found guilty, that they were haunted by what they had done, all are signs of the fact that they arent pure evil. Very evil people show no remorse.

 

Also J69, if you had read the article you would see that they point out some of the rumours and the fact they're not true (including the ridiculous Australian one, the fact you even thought that could be true because you read it on Snopes shows that whatever this job is you're going to isnt the right one for you).

 

I more than many on here know not to believe everything you read and hear in the press, christ on a bike I invented two of the sports news stories of late! however one newspaper I would put a lot more faith into to write an honest and biase free article is the Sunday Times.

[Lazarus 0]

 

If you were the judge and had the power to - could you kill them?

[ewerk 31195]

 

If you were the judge and had the power to - could you kill them?

166069[/snapback]

 

After hearing what they did I would be sorely tempted.

[ewerk 31195]

So basically what you are saying is that if someone commits a crime then they cannot be praised for something good they do later on?

 

 

Of course people deserve praise when they do well but not in a national newspaper and given the horrific nature of their acts I think the author of the article has laid it on too thick, painting them as perfect fucking human beings when they're obviously not given the crime they commited and the fact that they've been locked up ever since.

[Dr Kenneth Noisewater 0]

Can someone remind me which one was the leader, the instigator and which one was the slightly dim follower?

[Renton 21977]

Also J69, if you had read the article you would see that they point out some of the rumours and the fact they're not true (including the ridiculous Australian one, the fact you even thought that could be true because you read it on Snopes shows that whatever this job is you're going to isnt the right one for you).

 

J69, from what you have said in this thread and from what you have said about your experience in A&E, I too would have serious concerns with you taking a job that might get you involved in issues like this. Last time I said something like this you went off in a huge strop and pointed out I don't know you. This is true, I am only going from my interpretation of your posts on here, so please don't be offended.

 

As for the Snopes article, I read that a while ago and thought it was obvious to the authors that the story was an obvious hoax, yet you are trying to use it to justify your argument? Pretty weak really.

 

It's funny, when I suggested that HTL might have been in favour of the Bulger killers being executed, he was outraged to the extent it led to a slanging match which eventually has stopped him posting on here. And yet here we are, with many more left wing or centre ground posters implying they should have got the death sentence, or a life sentence without parole, which is arguably worse.

 

I don't get it. They were 10 years old - I can't even imagine what I was like at that age but I know I am a completely different person now. For me, children as young of 10 can never be held fully responsible for their crimes, and thankfully the law (which I generally have faith in) agrees. What kind of soceity do people want to live in? One that gives children the responsibility of adults but none of the rights?