Challenging for the Title

[Rayvin 5600]

So first off, no I don't mean this season. I mean over the next 2-3 years which I think is probably roughly the runtime of this side while most players remain at their peak.

 

I was thinking to myself yesterday that we talk about bringing in a right winger as a current main focus of transfer policy - so let's assume we manage that, and we bring in someone vaguely equivalent to Gordon. Does that alone turn us into title contenders? I'm not sure personally. I think it's a big step, probably the biggest single step we could take, but I'm not sure that this on its own is enough to put us into the conversation with Liverpool, Arsenal and City.

 

So what would it take, what do they have that we don't? Is it even all playing staff, maybe some of it is structural. Other than the mental solidity that I can only assume we have to build up on the go, where else are we going to need to strengthen? It feels like a huge ask atm to take a side that we already think is very good, but which is really just on the edge of CL as far as wider rankings in the division and turn them into a side which could challenge for the title. But then again, where might we be if we hadn't shipped easy points to weaker teams earlier in the season?

 

Just curious on people's thoughts for the next few years really - how we get from where we are, to where we want to be.

[Gemmill 47397]

Outside of a freak season, we need to strengthen massively across the squad, not just the first team.

 

Having said that, if Man City cease to turn up with the cheat codes every year, that definitely changes things in terms of bringing a potential title challenge closer. The other teams challenging are all challengeable by us, if they drop off even slightly. 

 

If we get CL next year though, we'll see all over again how far short we are squad wise to compete across 4 competitions. 

[Gemmill 47397]

However, the treble remains in our sights this season. 

[wykikitoon 21631]

Until we have a decent 'squad' we won't be challenging for a title.  Think it was Fish that said it before.  We need a strong starting 11.  We are shy of that IMO at the moment.  By a RW and a CB / GK.  And then 4-5 who can come in and do a job when we have injuries / congested fixtures.  We currently lack that.  Miley looks decent but he's a bairn.  Who do we have apart from him?  Pope / Dubs. But the rest, just not good enough.

[Kid Dynamite 7337]

Aye, Liverpool and City don't just have strong first XIs, they've got £50m players on the bench to bring in when players pick up injuries. We've currently got Lloyd Kelly, Sean Longstaff and Miggy Almiron. Hopefully some of our academy buys will come to fruition in the next 2-3 years to save us some money 

[Dr Gloom 22692]

It’s just squad depth that we lack. Our first eleven when everyone is fit is competitive.
 

We have the right manager in place. I think the squad is 3-4 quality additions away from being able to compete for the title.
 

Whether those players come from Mitchell unearthing gems or more academy players coming through or being recruited with Miley’s potential remains to be seen. I think the days of us splashing 60m on a single player are behind us due to the financial regulations. 
 

It’s also about retaining the blue chip players and building the squad by attracting players similar in class/potential to Isak/Bruno/Gordon.
 

That’s why qualifying for champions league this season feels so important, given the psr constraints. It will allow us to build from a position of strength instead of maybe going backwards to go forwards. 

Edited yesterday at 14:02 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 5600]

Squad depth isn't something we're realistically going to address properly in the timeframe we're talking about for this current iteration of the side I don't think - so that suggests to me that the best this version of the side can reach is CL level, and then we need to go through an evolution to a new generation that may in time challenge for the title.

 

That being the case then, maybe we should be open to selling some of our top tier players at 'the right prices' to support that overall transitional process - and that means we're relying on recruitment to be as good as it was under Ashworth (I do think the guy is a bit of a snake but you just can't argue with his success for us on this front), and that Howe can develop them into equivalent standards to the current team levels.

[Dr Gloom 22692]

13 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Squad depth isn't something we're realistically going to address properly in the timeframe we're talking about for this current iteration of the side I don't think - so that suggests to me that the best this version of the side can reach is CL level, and then we need to go through an evolution to a new generation that may in time challenge for the title.

 

That being the case then, maybe we should be open to selling some of our top tier players at 'the right prices' to support that overall transitional process - and that means we're relying on recruitment to be as good as it was under Ashworth (I do think the guy is a bit of a snake but you just can't argue with his success for us on this front), and that Howe can develop them into equivalent standards to the current team levels.

 

i think it could be if the recruitment is clever which is why mitchell was brought in - his thing is unearthing players with potential that don't cost the earth. 

 

finishing top four this season will also accelerate things. if we get champions league next season, we won't be under pressure to sell isak or bruno to finance more player investment. 

[Rayvin 5600]

I guess more than anything I'm just thinking that even if we had a second eleven with the same ability as the first eleven, would we be confident that we can beat Liverpool/City over a season or earn out the results we need consistently? The whole squad depth argument I do get, but is the first eleven good enough even so.

[Optimistic Nut 303]

36 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Outside of a freak season, we need to strengthen massively across the squad, not just the first team.

 

Having said that, if Man City cease to turn up with the cheat codes every year, that definitely changes things in terms of bringing a potential title challenge closer. The other teams challenging are all challengeable by us, if they drop off even slightly. 

 

If we get CL next year though, we'll see all over again how far short we are squad wise to compete across 4 competitions. 

 

Sort of why I don't think we should be selling Barnes. Even if he's been pretty average since the first couple of months, he's probably going to get 8-10 goals this season. Liverpool have Jota, Arsenal have Trossard...someone you can trust to get something.

 

We basically need another 5-6 of his equivalents through the rest of the squad. 

[Gemmill 47397]

1 minute ago, Optimistic Nut said:

 

Sort of why I don't think we should be selling Barnes. Even if he's been pretty average since the first couple of months, he's probably going to get 8-10 goals this season. Liverpool have Jota, Arsenal have Trossard...someone you can trust to get something.

 

We basically need another 5-6 of his equivalents through the rest of the squad. 

 

I agree. If we get CL, he'll be invaluable next season. 

 

[Holden McGroin 6997]

He doesn’t get trusted in the league so Eddie won’t trust him in CL. 
 

I think he is a superb player but Gordon is on fire right now and is always preferred regardless. It might take a long injury to Gordon to get a run on the LW (but even then Eddie has played Big Joe there in some cases).

 

I don’t think he’ll be much more than an impact sub here so he might want to move for some game time. I’m sure he’d have a lot of suitors.

[Gemmill 47397]

1 minute ago, Holden McGroin said:

He doesn’t get trusted in the league so Eddie won’t trust him in CL. 
 

I think he is a superb player but Gordon is on fire right now and is always preferred regardless. It might take a long injury to Gordon to get a run on the LW (but even then Eddie has played Big Joe there in some cases).

 

I don’t think he’ll be much more than an impact sub here so he might want to move for some game time. I’m sure he’d have a lot of suitors.

 

He'll get trusted in one or the other if we're playing 3 games a week. 

[Dr Gloom 22692]

20 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I guess more than anything I'm just thinking that even if we had a second eleven with the same ability as the first eleven, would we be confident that we can beat Liverpool/City over a season or earn out the results we need consistently? The whole squad depth argument I do get, but is the first eleven good enough even so.

it’s a mentality thing too, which is why the recent wins at old Trafford, the emirates and white heart lane were so important. This group of players are getting used to the idea that we can go to any ground, even the “big six” clubs where we have struggled, and compete.
 

Beating Liverpool is another monkey to get off our back. I’d love a victory at anfield more than any other win this season. We’re long overdue beating them. Remember we finished above them the season we finished fourth. VVD, Trent and Salah might be about to leave - who knows what they look like next season? 

[Ayatollah Hermione 14282]

Consistency is always the issue. If not for that dodgy run in the autumn, we’d be up there. FWIW, I think we’ll gradually improve the squad in smart ways, it’s just shifting some of the shit is proving nigh on impossible. 

[LongTimeAdmirer 1304]

in 2-3 years? We'd need our own coutinho/grealish moment thanks to PSR. Doubt were challenging for the title for at least 5. 

[Renton 22615]

Many cosmologists believe the Universe is infinite. Or that we live in a multiverse of infinite universes. 

In this scenario we have not only already won the title, infinite times, but my wife, Margot Robbie, is currently giving me a champagne enema as I type.  

[Dr Gloom 22692]

 

11 minutes ago, LongTimeAdmirer said:

in 2-3 years? We'd need our own coutinho/grealish moment thanks to PSR. Doubt were challenging for the title for at least 5. 

 

[Gemmill 47397]

20 minutes ago, Renton said:

Many cosmologists believe the Universe is infinite. Or that we live in a multiverse of infinite universes. 

In this scenario we have not only already won the title, infinite times, but my wife, Margot Robbie, is currently giving me a champagne enema as I type.  

 

Just for balance, there's another one where Bella Emberg is working you like a glove puppet. 

[Renton 22615]

2 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

Just for balance, there's another one where Bella Emberg is working you like a glove puppet. 

 

 

 

WHY WAS I BORN IN THIS STUPID UNIVERSE?????

 

 

[aimaad22 4393]

Other than what has been said about the squad already, I think we need to win a cup first. That'll do tons for the mentality of this squad, help us push on financially and improve marketability, give players more confidence about where we are going etc etc.

[Renton 22615]

5 minutes ago, aimaad22 said:

Other than what has been said about the squad already, I think we need to win a cup first. That'll do tons for the mentality of this squad, help us push on financially and improve marketability, give players more confidence about where we are going etc etc.

 

100% this. I firmly believe that even winning the leagure cup would unlock the gateway to the league and beyond. It's a mental thing with us as much as anything. 

And I dunno, I feel it in my bones its happening this year. 

 

Edit: I also believe a cup win would keep PIF motivated. 

Edited yesterday at 16:19 by Renton

[aimaad22 4393]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

I guess more than anything I'm just thinking that even if we had a second eleven with the same ability as the first eleven, would we be confident that we can beat Liverpool/City over a season or earn out the results we need consistently? The whole squad depth argument I do get, but is the first eleven good enough even so.

 

I think first eleven might honestly be 2-3 players away only. We all know the positions. RW, pacy CB to partner Botman long term and a Wilson replacement that should really be considered first 11 because Isak wont be able to carry you for a CL season even if he stays fit.

 

They've already shown they can beat anyone, and this recent run has shown the team has come a long way in terms of mentality, getting those huge away wins against top sides and looking in control doing it. And imo we're also much better technically because Hall and Tino have matured in leaps and bounds and in Tonali you suddenly have another player bordering world class in the team. 

 

 

[Rayvin 5600]

20 minutes ago, aimaad22 said:

Other than what has been said about the squad already, I think we need to win a cup first. That'll do tons for the mentality of this squad, help us push on financially and improve marketability, give players more confidence about where we are going etc etc.

 

Aye, agreed on this. I also wonder if there's a wider thing at work here in terms of how the rest of the league perceives us too. If you look at our first full season under Howe, we did well because we exploited an arrogance in other teams who felt that we were still fairly shit based on the players we had - or that they fancied their chances against us. Forest are benefitting from that this season. Once we are title contenders and people take us seriously as a dangerous team, they're going to sit deeper, take fewer risks, try to react to us more. That allows us to dictate terms for how the game will be, same as the City/Arsenal/Liverpool teams. And I do wonder if that might actually be an overall positive in a lot of ways.

 

We have to build into it for sure, get the right players to unlock low block defenses, but as much as our mentality around the club needs to evolve to seeing us as winners - I also wonder if everyone else's has to do the same. In other words, would Liverpool be so successful this season if everyone else believed they could get something off them and really went for it?

[Howmanheyman 34657]

I saw an arsenal fan saying we were 'bang average' other than Isak which made me genuinely lol. If he had've said we might struggle a bit without him for goals I could understand as currently we have nobody else who could be a stand alone striker who is ready to fill in for a few weeks, (Osula isn't ready and unfortunately Wilson's had it).