Fulham Fumblers vs. Newcastle Nest Invaders

[Holden McGroin 6432]

Normally you’d point the finger at the manager when performances suddenly drop off a cliff but I’m not sure it’s the case here.

[OTF 7203]

18 hours ago, Ayatollah Hermione said:

Mate, I want him to start as well but he did absolutely nowt to help us get a grip on the midfield 

 

I never said he did, they were still all over is but I do think that he improved things and ultimately I feel he needs to get more time on the pitch so he can develop playing relationships with the rest of our team. Quality wise we know he has a very high ceiling, the best thing for him will be playing time. I'm not sure why Howe has been so reluctant to, if it's not working out, or he's tired then you sub him off. 

[OTF 7203]

18 hours ago, aimaad22 said:

Starting Tonali won't magically solve our midfield problems, I just thought he looked less terrified of the ball than others yesterday. 

 

Honestly can't put my finger on what's wrong with Joe and Bruno this season. Or the rest of the team really. Just hope Howe can figure it out soon. 

 

Our upcoming fixture list is pretty tough too. 

 

Noone has said it would, and our problems aren't just with our midfield.

[Christmas Tree 4637]

1 hour ago, Holden McGroin said:

Normally you’d point the finger at the manager when performances suddenly drop off a cliff but I’m not sure it’s the case here.

100% the manager for me.  (No I don’t want rid).

 

We’ve been struggling with 433 all year, not just this season and it’s quite easy for teams to cut through us.

 

That has caused a nervousness and rot throughout the team. The service to Issac is appalling.

 

Howe controls the system and must also control the instruction not to press any more. 
 

If the new fitness guru has had a detrimental effect on performance then Howe shouldn’t be singing his praises.

 

Only Howe can change this, not any individual suddenly playing a bit better. And if he doesn’t do it quickly, the inevitable will follow.

[Gemmill 43881]

I think the lack of competition for places in the squad is a problem too. There are a number of people that are basically irreplaceable/undroppable in the current squad. That's not healthy for the team or them, and it's starting to show in their performances. 

[Holden McGroin 6432]

Every team has  a few undroppable players. Ironically where there is the most competition (midfield) is where we are struggling this season.  We've lost the ability to press and also to keep possession.  We are conceding far too many shots.

 

We are basically Man Utd from last season and are somehow only in 6th off the back of individual moments getting us points. NUFC.COM said we are a mid-table team on this showing and I tend to agree with that.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 23 by Holden McGroin

[wykikitoon 19746]

8 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

100% the manager for me.  (No I don’t want rid).

 

We’ve been struggling with 433 all year, not just this season and it’s quite easy for teams to cut through us.

 

That has caused a nervousness and rot throughout the team. The service to Issac is appalling.

 

Howe controls the system and must also control the instruction not to press any more. 
 

If the new fitness guru has had a detrimental effect on performance then Howe shouldn’t be singing his praises.

 

Only Howe can change this, not any individual suddenly playing a bit better. And if he doesn’t do it quickly, the inevitable will follow.

Service to Issac has been appalling as he's not been playing for us 

[Gemmill 43881]

3 minutes ago, Holden McGroin said:

Every team has  a few undroppable players. Ironically where there is the most competition (midfield) is where we are struggling this season.  We've lost the ability to press and also to keep possession.  We are conceding far too many shots.

 

We are basically Man Utd from last season and are somehow only in 6th off the back of individual moments getting us points. NUFC.COM said we are a mid-table team on this showing and I tend to agree with that.

 

 

 

 

 

There isn't that much competition in midfield though is there? Bruno must feel incredibly comfortable in his position, ditto Joelinton. There's basically one other spot that's currently getting rotated but realistically that belongs to Tonali once Howe is happy he's ready. 

 

Once that midfield is established, then there's one player (Willock) that realistically threatens the starting spot of those three players. 

[Holden McGroin 6432]

Just now, Gemmill said:

 

There isn't that much competition in midfield though is there? Bruno must feel incredibly comfortable in his position, ditto Joelinton. There's basically one other spot that's currently getting rotated but realistically that belongs to Tonali once Howe is happy he's ready. 

 

Once that midfield is established, then there's one player (Willock) that realistically threatens the starting spot of those three players. 

 

I think he'd happily chuck Longstaff back in if Tonali (or whoever) isn't playing well. Bruno is captain and also our best player (IMO) so dropping him would be pretty significant move by Howe. I think Tonali could play that role if he got injured though.

 

They don't look "Howe fit" to me. I think thats the main problem. 

[Gemmill 43881]

The "Howe fit" thing. They weren't that fit last season either. That must be a conscious decision by Howe and his team. They keep a lot of data on these lads, and I don't know whether at some point they've realised that that style of play (the insane intensity and press) is unsustainable unless you're prepared to supply the entire squad with magic inhalers. 

 

We're all clutching at straws here though, cos something is off and we can't see why a squad that was fucking electric 2 seasons ago now looks so pedestrian.

 

There might be something in what PL is saying though - whatever magic dust Howe had two seasons ago doesn't work with this group of players anymore. 

[Renton 20962]

Fucking hell lads, it was a bad day at the office certainly but is there any need for this level of catastrophising? Five league games in and 10 points. Won probably the hardest fixture we could have got in the cup. 

I know things aren't right, but that doesn't mean they can't be fixed. All, well nearly all, teams have dips in form which takes time to resolve. Maybe ours is just early on in the season. Let's see if Man City is the disaster we all seem to think it will be. Personally, I think as the ultimate test it may be the challenge the players need to kick start the season performance wise. 

[Gemmill 43881]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

Fucking hell lads, it was a bad day at the office certainly but is there any need for this level of catastrophising? Five league games in and 10 points. Won probably the hardest fixture we could have got in the cup. 

I know things aren't right, but that doesn't mean they can't be fixed. All, well nearly all, teams have dips in form which takes time to resolve. Maybe ours is just early on in the season. Let's see if Man City is the disaster we all seem to think it will be. Personally, I think as the ultimate test it may be the challenge the players need to kick start the season performance wise. 

 

As chastening as it is to be brought up on a catastrophising charge by you, this has been going on a lot longer than just the first 5 games of this season. 

[Dazzler 9177]

I don't think it's unsustainable, but you have to be able to control the possession better. That's why teams like Man City can do it (that and a huge squad filled with insane quality). It doesn't really work when you split possession 50/50 - or you have less than half of the ball - you're just getting players to burn themselves out. You need to be consistently dominant on the ball and we just aren't.

 

I also don't think it helps when you have one player that you could rely on to chase everything a year ago no longer willing or able to do it. That could be rubbing off on the others. "Well if he's not going to do it, why should I?" Etc. Footballers are petulant man children for the most part, let's be honest.

[Dazzler 9177]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

Fucking hell lads, it was a bad day at the office certainly but is there any need for this level of catastrophising? Five league games in and 10 points. Won probably the hardest fixture we could have got in the cup. 

I know things aren't right, but that doesn't mean they can't be fixed. All, well nearly all, teams have dips in form which takes time to resolve. Maybe ours is just early on in the season. Let's see if Man City is the disaster we all seem to think it will be. Personally, I think as the ultimate test it may be the challenge the players need to kick start the season performance wise. 

We've had 6 bad days at the office so far and getting results in spite of it. I don't think it's catastrophising. We've gotten to 10 points largely because other teams were shite in the final third. On recent showing we're getting absolutely shagged by Man City.

[Gemmill 43881]

3 minutes ago, Dazzler said:

I don't think it's unsustainable, but you have to be able to control the possession better. That's why teams like Man City can do it (that and a huge squad filled with insane quality). It doesn't really work when you split possession 50/50 - or you have less than half of the ball - you're just getting players to burn themselves out. You need to be consistently dominant on the ball and we just aren't.

 

I also don't think it helps when you have one player that you could rely on to chase everything a year ago no longer willing or able to do it. That could be rubbing off on the others. "Well if he's not going to do it, why should I?" Etc. Footballers are petulant man children for the most part, let's be honest.

 

It's dead easy to read into things when stuff isn't going well, so here goes...

 

I definitely get the impression that Gordon is on the outs with the rest of the squad. 

 

Let's chuck that one into the blender of discontent and whip us up another conspiracy smoothie. 

Edited September 23 by Gemmill

[Dazzler 9177]

1 minute ago, Gemmill said:

 

It's dead easy to read into things when stuff isn't going well, so here goes...

 

I definitely get the impression that Gordon is on the outs with the rest of the squad. 

 

Chuck that one into the blender of discontent and whip us another conspiracy smoothie. 

Maybe because Gordon was on the podcast circuit throughout the summer wanking himself daft over Guehi the camp has been split in half. We're seeing the NUFC version of west side story - west end story if you will - playing out.

 

Schar leading the Scharks (no, you fuck off) - made up of all the foreign lads, Gordon leading the Jets. We just need one of the foreigners to fall in love with some scouse blart to help smooth things over.

[OTF 7203]

1 minute ago, Gemmill said:

 

There isn't that much competition in midfield though is there? Bruno must feel incredibly comfortable in his position, ditto Joelinton. There's basically one other spot that's currently getting rotated but realistically that belongs to Tonali once Howe is happy he's ready. 

 

Once that midfield is established, then there's one player (Willock) that realistically threatens the starting spot of those three players. 

 

Howe has invested a lot into this formation and system but it hasn't worked at all this season and much of last as well. Last season Miley fit really well into it. His positioning tended to cautious and he wasn't wasteful with the ball. This season Longstaff, Joelinton and Bruno have all turned over possession way too often. Whether it's unsuccessful dribbles, missplaced passes, poor touches or being outmuscled we've seen them all frequently. When we do turn over possession we've looked sluggish and can't shutdown the subsequent counter attacks. It looks to me like it is time for a new or at least tweaked system. Tethering our wingers back to side midfield roles is one option that brings us back to a 4-4-1-1 formation where we need to be more selective in pushing high out wide. The result of this is also that our central midfielders control a narrower zone through the middle and our fullbacks are less often isolated.

[Renton 20962]

9 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

As chastening as it is to be brought up on a catastrophising charge by you, this has been going on a lot longer than just the first 5 games of this season. 

 

Last season we were ravaged by injury, involved in 3 cups, and still came 7th. I was more than happy with our level of performance last season. 

[The Fish 10648]

7 minutes ago, Renton said:

Fucking hell lads, it was a bad day at the office certainly but is there any need for this level of catastrophising? Five league games in and 10 points. Won probably the hardest fixture we could have got in the cup. 

I know things aren't right, but that doesn't mean they can't be fixed. All, well nearly all, teams have dips in form which takes time to resolve. Maybe ours is just early on in the season. Let's see if Man City is the disaster we all seem to think it will be. Personally, I think as the ultimate test it may be the challenge the players need to kick start the season performance wise. 

Performance wise, we've been pretty poor for some time. Last season you could justifiably pin the blame on injuries and suspensions and there's a little of that remaining now. But, we've been poor in possession, poor in the tackle, poor with decisions and poor in terms of effort. That can't be explained away by Botman or Wilson's absence.

[Dr Gloom 21735]

49 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

100% the manager for me.  (No I don’t want rid).

 

We’ve been struggling with 433 all year, not just this season and it’s quite easy for teams to cut through us.

 

That has caused a nervousness and rot throughout the team. The service to Issac is appalling.

 

Howe controls the system and must also control the instruction not to press any more. 
 

If the new fitness guru has had a detrimental effect on performance then Howe shouldn’t be singing his praises.

 

Only Howe can change this, not any individual suddenly playing a bit better. And if he doesn’t do it quickly, the inevitable will follow.

 

you might be on to something here, but howe has never really experimented with a "double pivot" as the kids call it. when questioned about not buying a "number 6" he said he has three players who can perform that role - bruno, sean and tonali. 

 

our midfield area is one of the strongest areas of the squad on paper, but we lack the sort of player positionally disciplined enough to sit deep in front of the back four. bruno has done it, to good effect at times, because is he one of the few who can receive the ball on the half turn, resist pressure and distributive from deep but he isn't infallible, has had a rocky start to the season and is arguably more of a threat when played in a more advanced position. 

 

it might be that we would look more secure in a 4-2-3-1, with bruno and tonali both screening the back four, but howe has never given any indication that he wants to try this system. if he is going to stick with the 4-3-3, which has served him well, something needs to change - whether it's personnel or a return to the pressing intensity we used to see, i don't know. 

[Renton 20962]

25 minutes ago, The Fish said:

Performance wise, we've been pretty poor for some time. Last season you could justifiably pin the blame on injuries and suspensions and there's a little of that remaining now. But, we've been poor in possession, poor in the tackle, poor with decisions and poor in terms of effort. That can't be explained away by Botman or Wilson's absence.

 

SIx games though W4D1L1.

Yeah, the perfromances weren't there but obviously some things have been right, we didn't get those results through shear luck, that's mackemesque. I'll let you lot argue over formations, tactics, possession and pressing, and individual player liabilities and I'll put my trust in Howe and his team  thanks. Professionals. Lose a game against Fulham, a game we very nearly came back from 2 down, and suddenly we're playing like a Bruce team. I say lets judge after 10 league games. Genuinely hoping for a reaction against city. Maybe not a point, but something positive. 

[Gemmill 43881]

Renton, how many times. Headline writers used "Shear" when Shearer played for us. The word is spelled "sheer". It's time you let it go, the man has been retired years now. 

[The Fish 10648]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

SIx games though W4D1L1.

Yeah, the perfromances weren't there but obviously some things have been right, we didn't get those results through shear luck, that's mackemesque. I'll let you lot argue over formations, tactics, possession and pressing, and individual player liabilities and I'll put my trust in Howe and his team  thanks. Professionals. Lose a game against Fulham, a game we very nearly came back from 2 down, and suddenly we're playing like a Bruce team. I say lets judge after 10 league games. Genuinely hoping for a reaction against city. Maybe not a point, but something positive. 

 

Howay Renton man, No one is saying we're as bad as we were under Bruce.

 

No, we didn't win through sheer luck, it's through moments of individual quality (Barnes & Schar), moments of a team working well together and so on. It's also an opposition failing to take their chances, and making defensive errors themselves. 

 

I don't think we need to make sweeping changes and I do think there are several distinct influences that mitigate the performance. Once the latter are resolved as much as possible, the former will be way, way easier to fix. 

 

The defence isn't quite working right now. There's too big of a gap between them and the midfield, which means when the under-performing midfield is played through (or over), the defence is overrun. You can close that gap by shifting the midfield back, or the defence up. I don't think our CBs have the pace to play much further up, so I'd make changes to the midfield. I don't want to abandon the high press, so that means we can't simply drag the 4-3-3 back 10-20yds. Keep the high press, but swap to a 4-2-3-1 formation.

[Renton 20962]

12 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

Howay Renton man, No one is saying we're as bad as we were under Bruce.

 

No, we didn't win through sheer luck, it's through moments of individual quality (Barnes & Schar), moments of a team working well together and so on. It's also an opposition failing to take their chances, and making defensive errors themselves. 

 

I don't think we need to make sweeping changes and I do think there are several distinct influences that mitigate the performance. Once the latter are resolved as much as possible, the former will be way, way easier to fix. 

 

The defence isn't quite working right now. There's too big of a gap between them and the midfield, which means when the under-performing midfield is played through (or over), the defence is overrun. You can close that gap by shifting the midfield back, or the defence up. I don't think our CBs have the pace to play much further up, so I'd make changes to the midfield. I don't want to abandon the high press, so that means we can't simply drag the 4-3-3 back 10-20yds. Keep the high press, but swap to a 4-2-3-1 formation.

 

Sure Bruce has been mentioned like. I'm not disagreeing with what you've said, but making the obvious point Howe will have thought about that and more. We seemed to have abandoned the high press for reasons that aren't that obvious to me as a casual football observer, maybe its true everything stems from defence and with Botman and Lascelles goosed, Trippier on the wane and our other full backs maybe not stepping up enough this is a contributory reason. Maybe there's something more fundamental going on with Howe and the ownership causing issues. I dunno, just want to give it a bit more time. Six games is not a huge run in the scheme of things and I, personally, didn't see anything wrong last season. 

Edited September 23 by Renton

[Holden McGroin 6432]

23 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Sure Bruce has been mentioned like. I'm not disagreeing with what you've said, but making the obvious point Howe will have thought about that and more. We seemed to have abandoned the high press for reasons that aren't that obvious to me as a casual football observer, maybe its true everything stems from defence and with Botman and Lascelles goosed, Trippier on the wane and our other full backs maybe not stepping up enough this is a contributory reason. Maybe there's something more fundamental going on with Howe and the ownership causing issues. I dunno, just want to give it a bit more time. Six games is not a huge run in the scheme of things and I, personally, didn't see anything wrong last season. 

 

Last season the players were goosed  from about December onwards so we barely saw any suffocating of teams after Man Utd/Chelsea (h) fixtures.  I can understand the philosophy slightly changing to be a more possession based team to counteract injuries from burnout but we aren't good enough to keep the ball. Whether thats coaching or just players im not sure. Maybe a bit of both.