Middle East Crisis

[Dr Gloom 21910]

6 minutes ago, Renton said:

I haven't seen any Israeli or Palestinian flags here. Given the nature of this crisis, I would feel uneasy with both or either. No US flags after 9/11 either. Ukraine, yes, plenty. 

Why?  I think because it was in Europe, it was was a relatively new conflict involving a old common foe, Russia is a country committing these atrocities, not a terror group, and it was an attack against our own freedoms. Not only that, we directly received thousands of Ukrainian refugees and wanted to show solidarity at a physical level It was personal.  Ujraine was and is the exception to the rule.

no BLM posters?

[Renton 21552]

1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

no BLM posters?

 

Think I've seen some hung in some kids bedroom windows. This is a middle class enclave in NE England like, not sure what your point is. 

Just listening to the rest is politics podcast there. The point was made we've touched on previously. Hamas are now jihadists.They don't care about humanity and suffering in this life, they don't want peace. Israel can't appease them even if they wanted to. We keep ignoring the religious dimension here but it's both the cause and the reason there can be no peace with this group. 

[spongebob toonpants 3992]

One of my oldest friends moved back to Tel Aviv 6 months ago. He has a 7 year old son, who hasn't left their bomb shelter in 72 hours. His pacifist brother has been drafted

He is probably the the most progressive left wing person I know and hates Bibi with a passion, and blames him for Hamas having so much power. Netanyahu has actively promoted Hamas to sideline the PLO and any possible peaceful way forward

He is in despair, and thinks there is no answer to this.

 

[aimaad22 4156]

7 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

no, i don't. please don't try to justify what hamas did. 

 

Mate, I don't know what to say to that, we've been over this. I appreciate that it's a difficult time for you.

 

If any criticism of Israel's occupation and war crimes on generations of an occupied people is going to be branded 'hamas apologists' or 'anti-Semitism' as it sometimes is in the media, then not only will it distract from when those things actually do happen, but we will never make meaningful strides towards resolution.

 

It is at the very heart of the trouble in the region. We're fighting symptoms and ignoring deeper lying causes. Biden, Starmer and other political leaders can pretend otherwise all they like; history will remember that the world cheered on apartheid and genocide.

 

I'm sorry if its troubling hearing that again, I'll try not to repeat it as after a point it'll feel like we're going in circles anyway, I just feel it is too often overlooked in some mainstream media and most certainly in the way many countries have responded. If things were turned the other way around, no chance we would be reacting the same way. That's the horrible depressing truth. 

[Dr Gloom 21910]

9 hours ago, Renton said:

 

Think I've seen some hung in some kids bedroom windows. This is a middle class enclave in NE England like, not sure what your point is. 

Just listening to the rest is politics podcast there. The point was made we've touched on previously. Hamas are now jihadists.They don't care about humanity and suffering in this life, they don't want peace. Israel can't appease them even if they wanted to. We keep ignoring the religious dimension here but it's both the cause and the reason there can be no peace with this group. 

 

i dunno - for whatever reason, the metropolitan liberals (in the UK at least) are reluctant, or perhaps embarrassed, to stand with jewish people. you see it in the turnout for the vigil after the massacre in Israel. few took to the streets in the same numbers that we saw after the invasion of ukraine, or the murder of george flloyd - or after the retaliatory attack on gaza.

 

i don't know what my point is. it's not a competition, but it is apparent to me, a liberal leftie secular jew, that there is a bind spot on the left when it comes to antisemitism.  i saw it on social media after the antisemitism scandal under corbyn. i've seen more evidence of it since. it isn't antisemitic to despise what the israeli governement has done to the palestinian people. but there has been a notable lack of empathy about the massacre of jews in israel last weekend - no outpouring grief from what i would consider my political allies. 

 

it's something david baddiel opened my eyes to in his brilliant polemic jews don't count. jews aren't afforded the same level of compassion because we are seen as holding the power. we are the oppressors, not the oppressed. that may be the case when it comes to the asymmetry you mentioned between israel and Gaza but the people who were murdered in southern Israel were just ordinary people. 

[Dr Gloom 21910]

9 hours ago, spongebob toonpants said:

One of my oldest friends moved back to Tel Aviv 6 months ago. He has a 7 year old son, who hasn't left their bomb shelter in 72 hours. His pacifist brother has been drafted

He is probably the the most progressive left wing person I know and hates Bibi with a passion, and blames him for Hamas having so much power. Netanyahu has actively promoted Hamas to sideline the PLO and any possible peaceful way forward

He is in despair, and thinks there is no answer to this.

 

 

my family share similar stories. it's fucking hopeless. i hope this may be the tipping point on both sides, that a majority of civilised people on both sides will say "enough", eject the religious/nationalist extremists and reignite the peace process. i fear the opposite may be true 

[Alex 35052]

I know Starmer (for example) comes across as a coward at times. I’m fairly disappointed in him but, as with a lot of other things, but (perhaps especially) with this, he literally can’t do anything but repeat what the government, the US and so on are saying without loads of elements in the media jumping all over him. It’s an example of how it’s so difficult for moderates to get their nuanced opinions heard and how everything is so polarised in so much political debate. Not really a defence of Starmer but a moan about how fucking frustrating and hopeless it seems for those who want peace. Which I honestly think is the majority of people everywhere 

[Dr Gloom 21910]

8 hours ago, aimaad22 said:

 

Mate, I don't know what to say to that, we've been over this. I appreciate that it's a difficult time for you.

 

If any criticism of Israel's occupation and war crimes on generations of an occupied people is going to be branded 'hamas apologists' or 'anti-Semitism' as it sometimes is in the media, then not only will it distract from when those things actually do happen, but we will never make meaningful strides towards resolution.

 

It is at the very heart of the trouble in the region. We're fighting symptoms and ignoring deeper lying causes. Biden, Starmer and other political leaders can pretend otherwise all they like; history will remember that the world cheered on apartheid and genocide.

 

I'm sorry if its troubling hearing that again, I'll try not to repeat it as after a point it'll feel like we're going in circles anyway, I just feel it is too often overlooked in some mainstream media and most certainly in the way many countries have responded. If things were turned the other way around, no chance we would be reacting the same way. That's the horrible depressing truth. 

 

the israeli occupation and blockade does deserve to be criticised. it doesn't justify what hamas did in my view. anyone labelling hamas freedom fighters are apologists. this was israel's 9/11. i wouldn't label the psychopaths who flew those planes into the twin towers freedom fighters either. america has committed more war crimes than probably any sovereign state on the world - does that mean 9/11 was justified? of course it doesn't. those were innoncent people in the twin towers 

[NJS 4376]

58 minutes ago, Alex said:

I know Starmer (for example) comes across as a coward at times. I’m fairly disappointed in him but, as with a lot of other things, but (perhaps especially) with this, he literally can’t do anything but repeat what the government, the US and so on are saying without loads of elements in the media jumping all over him. It’s an example of how it’s so difficult for moderates to get their nuanced opinions heard and how everything is so polarised in so much political debate. Not really a defence of Starmer but a moan about how fucking frustrating and hopeless it seems for those who want peace. Which I honestly think is the majority of people everywhere 

Any suggestion of de-escalation, ceasefire, diplomacy and peacekeeping in any conflict has now been classified as insane communist lunacy which must be crushed. 

 

Just because someone suggested some mild left of centre policies for 5 minutes. 

[Toonpack 9376]

16 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

no, i don't. please don't try to justify what hamas did. 

 

i don't support the occupation, i've been clear on that. but what hamas did was a declaration of war.

 

they did it precisely because they want an escalation. they killed babies, beheaded people and took infant and elderly hostages deliberately and publicly in a way that israel and the world could not ignore. they wanted and expected this retaliation. 

 

do you disagree? 

 

He didn't

[Gemmill 44779]

Weird as fuck that people are coming on here trying to "win" an argument about this situation.

 

I say nowt cos a) I don't know enough to offer an opinion and b) even if I did, my opinion is completely fucking irrelevant. Particularly to a bloke who has family caught up in this horror show.

 

It's enough to just be horrified about the ENTIRE THING without having to get someone to admit their position is wrong or that they're not quite looking at it right or whatever.

 

Argue about football or who wipes their arse right, and leave stuff like this alone beyond just being appalled. You're not "right" and you're not gonna "win".

[Dazzler 9691]

1 hour ago, NJS said:

Any suggestion of de-escalation, ceasefire, diplomacy and peacekeeping in any conflict has now been classified as insane communist lunacy which must be crushed. 

 

Just because someone suggested some mild left of centre policies for 5 minutes. 

 

That's because common sense is frowned upon in modern, British politics. Critical thinking is now seen as the weird option. You either need to be a outright fascist or a full on communist. Even then no actual work gets done because they just sling mud at each other.

 

Starmer is a proper wet lettuce, but at least he strikes me as a bit of a realist.

[The Fish 10838]

2 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

i dunno - for whatever reason, the metropolitan liberals (in the UK at least) are reluctant, or perhaps embarrassed, to stand with jewish people. you see it in the turnout for the vigil after the massacre in Israel. few took to the streets in the same numbers that we saw after the invasion of ukraine, or the murder of george flloyd - or after the retaliatory attack on gaza.

 

i don't know what my point is. it's not a competition, but it is apparent to me, a liberal leftie secular jew, that there is a bind spot on the left when it comes to antisemitism.  i saw it on social media after the antisemitism scandal under corbyn. i've seen more evidence of it since. it isn't antisemitic to despise what the israeli governement has done to the palestinian people. but there has been a notable lack of empathy about the massacre of jews in israel last weekend - no outpouring grief from what i would consider my political allies. 

 

it's something david baddiel opened my eyes to in his brilliant polemic jews don't count. jews aren't afforded the same level of compassion because we are seen as holding the power. we are the oppressors, not the oppressed. that may be the case when it comes to the asymmetry you mentioned between israel and Gaza but the people who were murdered in southern Israel were just ordinary people. 

 

I don't think that's the case, I think us lefty pinko commies are reluctant or perhaps embarrassed to stand with the government of Israel. Palestine have long been portrayed as an occupied people, displaced from their homes by state-sanctioned Israeli settlements. I've not seen any Hamas flags, just Palestinian ones and because Hamas aren't perceived to be the government of Palestine (even though they pretty much are) a distinction is made between the acts of terrorism by Hamas, and the people of Palestine. That distinction isn't as clear between Israelis and the actions of their government, rightly or wrongly. 

 

I'm not anti-Israeli people, or pro-Hamas and I admit I might be way, way off, but that's just my cod-psychologist view of this specific point.

[NJS 4376]

21 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Weird as fuck that people are coming on here trying to "win" an argument about this situation.

 

I say nowt cos a) I don't know enough to offer an opinion and b) even if I did, my opinion is completely fucking irrelevant. Particularly to a bloke who has family caught up in this horror show.

 

It's enough to just be horrified about the ENTIRE THING without having to get someone to admit their position is wrong or that they're not quite looking at it right or whatever.

 

Argue about football or who wipes their arse right, and leave stuff like this alone beyond just being appalled. You're not "right" and you're not gonna "win".

Fair enough up to a point but it suggests that anyone on here does know anything about football/films/music/arse wiping. 

[Dr Gloom 21910]

28 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

I don't think that's the case, I think us lefty pinko commies are reluctant or perhaps embarrassed to stand with the government of Israel. Palestine have long been portrayed as an occupied people, displaced from their homes by state-sanctioned Israeli settlements. I've not seen any Hamas flags, just Palestinian ones and because Hamas aren't perceived to be the government of Palestine (even though they pretty much are) a distinction is made between the acts of terrorism by Hamas, and the people of Palestine. That distinction isn't as clear between Israelis and the actions of their government, rightly or wrongly. 

 

I'm not anti-Israeli people, or pro-Hamas and I admit I might be way, way off, but that's just my cod-psychologist view of this specific point.

I can only tell you what it feels like to me, as a Jew. And as someone who doesn’t support the Israeli government either 

[The Fish 10838]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

I can only tell you what it feels like to me, as a Jew. And as someone who doesn’t support the Israeli government either 

I understand mate. It's fucking awful and I imagine when the flag waved by the very people who've committed atrocities, is being proudly waved by the people you thought were friends, colleagues or allies, it must feel like a betrayal, like you're on your own. But you're not. 

 

 

[Renton 21552]

55 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

Weird as fuck that people are coming on here trying to "win" an argument about this situation.

 

I say nowt cos a) I don't know enough to offer an opinion and b) even if I did, my opinion is completely fucking irrelevant. Particularly to a bloke who has family caught up in this horror show.

 

It's enough to just be horrified about the ENTIRE THING without having to get someone to admit their position is wrong or that they're not quite looking at it right or whatever.

 

Argue about football or who wipes their arse right, and leave stuff like this alone beyond just being appalled. You're not "right" and you're not gonna "win".

 

See, I don't agree with this at all. It's a message board, General Chat is all about sharing opiniions and feelings about World events as well as funny stuff. I agree this topic needs extra sensitivity, but I don't see anyone trying to win an argument here. In fact, we're all pretty much in agreement the whole thing is a shit show. But exposing the hypocrisy of the politics here with particular reference to the UK is what we do. Participation on this thread is optional and those that are contributing aren't weird. Okay. maybe some are, but not cos they're on this thread. 

[Rayvin 5217]

1 hour ago, Gemmill said:

Weird as fuck that people are coming on here trying to "win" an argument about this situation.

 

I say nowt cos a) I don't know enough to offer an opinion and b) even if I did, my opinion is completely fucking irrelevant. Particularly to a bloke who has family caught up in this horror show.

 

It's enough to just be horrified about the ENTIRE THING without having to get someone to admit their position is wrong or that they're not quite looking at it right or whatever.

 

Argue about football or who wipes their arse right, and leave stuff like this alone beyond just being appalled. You're not "right" and you're not gonna "win".

 

I've stopped engaging in this as of a few days ago because I don't believe that it is actually possible to properly discuss it here, but I don't think you should be shaming people over debate in a topic that was opened specifically for them to do so. I think so far everyone has conducted themselves very well and with a significant amount of restraint and compassion over an issue that genuinely does seem to cut across political lines - especially compared to what I've seen from the same conversation in other communities.

 

I think the alternative would be to close the thread.

[Dr Gloom 21910]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I've stopped engaging in this as of a few days ago because I don't believe that it is actually possible to properly discuss it here, but I don't think you should be shaming people over debate in a topic that was opened specifically for them to do so. I think so far everyone has conducted themselves very well and with a significant amount of restraint and compassion over an issue that genuinely does seem to cut across political lines - especially compared to what I've seen from the same conversation in other communities.

 

I think the alternative would be to close the thread.

Don’t close it on my account. I probably just need to take a time out. It’s all still v raw. I’d sooner talk about it here, along online friends, most of whom are informed and respectful, than attempt to engage with the Twitter trolls. 

[Renton 21552]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I've stopped engaging in this as of a few days ago because I don't believe that it is actually possible to properly discuss it here, but I don't think you should be shaming people over debate in a topic that was opened specifically for them to do so. I think so far everyone has conducted themselves very well and with a significant amount of restraint and compassion over an issue that genuinely does seem to cut across political lines - especially compared to what I've seen from the same conversation in other communities.

 

I think the alternative would be to close the thread.

 

You've done the right thing in closing the other thread which trivialised the issue and had fucknuts like Parky and opening this one. We shouldn't censor this issue, everybody has been respectful imo. There are clear sensitivities to navigate with Gloom and aimaad, just like real life. In my office, I have colleagues who have relatives in Israel being called up, and a colleague with immediate family in Gaza. This isn't an esoteric issue, it is affecting a lot of people in the UK and must be faced. Maybe that will become a positive, that the issue will have to be resolved now rather than left to fester for dacades with people just thinking "not this shit again in Gaza/west bank" and switching off the news. 

[Rayvin 5217]

10 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Don’t close it on my account. I probably just need to take a time out. It’s all still v raw. I’d sooner talk about it here, along online friends, most of whom are informed and respectful, than attempt to engage with the Twitter trolls. 

 

I think you're doing very well all things considered mate in what must be an absolutely horrifying time on a personal level and for which I genuinely do feel for you and your family. I don't think the conclusion that we can't or shouldn't discuss it would be just about you - as said, I don't feel able to engage with any of it properly even just on my own end.

 

Anyway I just wanted to acknowledge that I'm personally open to that outcome if that's the way everyone feels on it in the end.

[ewerk 30534]

On 11/10/2023 at 21:36, Dr Gloom said:

Why BBC doesn't call Hamas militants 'terrorists' - John Simpson
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67083432

 

The US, the EU and the UK all describe Hamas as a terrorist group - but not the BBC!

 

I actually agree with this well-explained piece by John Simpson. 

You can’t say that this isn’t bias.

 

 

[ewerk 30534]

Gotta stay vigilant though.

 

[aimaad22 4156]

Yeah I agree with Renton and Rayvin on this one. I think from the off we all knew nobody's really going to change their minds based on what will be said here. Although of course it's always good, and often illumniating, to hear the other point of view.

 

In part we're venting I suppose and in part trying a tiny bit to raise awareness which may not count for shite in the end but I feel it's better than completely burying your head in the sand. 

[Dr Gloom 21910]

27 minutes ago, ewerk said:

You can’t say that this isn’t bias.

 

 

I mean, it’s true. There were people there holding Hamas and other Islamist flags and many chanted “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” -  a call for the destruction of the state of Israel, as called for in the Hamas charter.

 

I agree that the copy she is reading is disingenuous. Many people were there to support Palestinians, not Hamas. It’s like saying those who were at the vigil for Israel last week were there to support Netanyahu. I’m sure there were some Israeli nationalists in attendance but that’s hardly how you’d label it in a news bulletin. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Dr Gloom