Middle East Crisis

[Dr Gloom 22129]

10 minutes ago, Dazzler said:

 

I think it's important to remember why Israel exists (as well as it's right to exist), but also what the long term impact it has had on the Palestinians too. They never really had a say in the creation of Israel, and if that's not managed with empathy then it allows hatred to grow and fester, and what has happened since becomes sadly inevitable. Hamas should be strung up for their actions, but it shouldn't come at the cost of the innocent people who also just want the right to exist, the same as their neighbours. 

 

100%. The only way there will ever be peace is if israel pulls out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, hands over the settlements to the PLO, then removes the blockade and opens up Gaza to the global economy. But it can't do that as long as Hamas is calling the shots. 

 

A two state solution is the only solution but it seems doomed to failure. And it's a pipe dream right now given we're a million miles from either side even thinking about sitting around the negotiation table.

 

You can understand why Israelis are reticent, especially after this assault. Israel sees the Arab enemies on its border as an existential threat.

 

There's an expression in Israel that goes something like: there is no peace until the Palestinians put down their weapons. If Israel puts down its weapons, there is no Israel. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[Dazzler 10344]

12 minutes ago, Alex said:

I think being a smaller community etc there’s a greater risk perhaps here in the UK to Jews. But I don’t want to take sides or anything and you’re right. You just need to look at post 9/11 where anyone who looked vaguely Arabic, Middle Eastern or South Asian were at a greater risk 

 

I think it just goes to show the power the media has on public perception really. A handful of extremists carried out 9/11 and pushed a load of right leaning dickheads further to the right and gave them unwritten permission to attack an entire race of people. Tommy Robinson and his little band of braindead idiots might try and pretend it was only Islam they had an issue with, but I have Hindu friends who have awful stories of these morons throwing things, spitting and abusing them just after the attacks on the trade centre just because they "looked" like them. The same is equally true for Jewish people I have no doubt. It's all appalling, and even more shocking that it still happens in 2023.

[Dr Gloom 22129]

14 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

 

I'm not really trying to make a big thing of this terrorism angle I'm really just responding to the point about how Britain would react. I think we'd go to war on either side of it tbh.

 

that is absolutely sickening reading 

[Rayvin 5288]

As an aside, I've seen a lot of people talk about this as a religious conflict but im not personally sure if it is one. Is it not nationalism that underpins this rather than religion? I know that religion is heavily intertwined of course but I'm not sure it on its own is the "why".

 

[Dr Gloom 22129]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

As an aside, I've seen a lot of people talk about this as a religious conflict but im not personally sure if it is one. Is it not nationalism that underpins this rather than religion? I know that religion is heavily intertwined of course but I'm not sure it on its own is the "why".

 

 

it's the religious extremists on both sides that drive the conflict. it's the ultra-orthodox and their supporters in the knesset who are expanding the settlements in the occupied territories. my family are all secular jews and they just want to live in peace

[Renton 21967]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

As an aside, I've seen a lot of people talk about this as a religious conflict but im not personally sure if it is one. Is it not nationalism that underpins this rather than religion? I know that religion is heavily intertwined of course but I'm not sure it on its own is the "why".

 

 

Well, considering the Hamas terrorists were basically suicide "martyrs" I'd say it was massively motivated by religion, Not you in particular, but why do people try to minimise the impact of religion here? It's ALL about religion in the end. 

[ewerk 31178]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

As an aside, I've seen a lot of people talk about this as a religious conflict but im not personally sure if it is one. Is it not nationalism that underpins this rather than religion? I know that religion is heavily intertwined of course but I'm not sure it on its own is the "why".

 

 

Religion is the only justification for the creation and existence of Israel but otherwise I agree.

[Rayvin 5288]

4 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Well, considering the Hamas terrorists were basically suicide "martyrs" I'd say it was massively motivated by religion, Not you in particular, but why do people try to minimise the impact of religion here? It's ALL about religion in the end. 

 

I think because there are people out there who seem to think if you take religion away humankind lives in total peace and harmony, and I'm just not seeing it.

 

Religion is a convenient narrative or context for violence often enough, but I suspect that in this case we would be seeing this violence with or without it.

[Dazzler 10344]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

100%. The only way there will ever be peace is if israel pulls out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, hands over the settlements to the PLO, then removes the blockade and opens up Gaza to the global economy. But it can't do that as long as Hamas is calling the shots. 

 

A two state solution is the only solution but it seems doomed to failure. And it's a pipe dream right now given we're a million miles from either side even thinking about sitting around the negotiation table.

 

You can understand why Israelis are reticent, especially after this assault. Israel sees the Arab enemies on its border as a existential threat.

 

There's an expression in Israel that goes something like: there is no peace until the Palestinians put down their weapons. If Israel puts down its weapons, there is no Israel. 

 

The scary and sad part is, that saying is equally applicable to Palestinians. Each believe the other hates them and wants them wiped out, and it most likely couldn't be further from the truth. I bet a very quick search on google would highlight unbelievable acts of kindness on both sides, which is extraordinary given the potential repercussions they face.

 

Hamas in charge of one side and an ultra-nationalist (or a bloke backed by ultra-nationalists) on the other will never bring peace. It's just two sets of nutters fixing for a scrap.

[ewerk 31178]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Religion is a convenient narrative or context for violence often enough, but I suspect that in this case we would be seeing this violence with or without it.

 

It's been used as the pretext for wars and national expansion for centuries, it's naive to think otherwise.

 

Take a look at the Troubles in NI. No one was shooting each other over the issue of transubstantiation.

Edited October 12, 2023 by ewerk

[Renton 21967]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

I think because there are people out there who seem to think if you take religion away humankind lives in total peace and harmony, and I'm just not seeing it.

 

Religion is a convenient narrative or context for violence often enough, but I suspect that in this case we would be seeing this violence with or without it.

 

From what we know, the Hamas terroists/militants whatever did what they did in the promise of paradise in the afterlife. Take away that, the current situation doesn't happen.

I'm not saying all wars are motivated by religion, but many are. Either between faiths, or within faiths. This war is not just between Judaism and Islam, but also a proxy for Sunni vs. Shiite. In the case of the Middle East, it is all about interpretation of ancient books and bloodlines, it's pathetic. And here the most significant war on our soil in recent times was also sectarian.

 

You might argue we'd be fighting about something else in a parallel universe. I don't know about that, but for me, I'm not letting religion off the hook. It is responsible for most of the evil in our lives imo. 

[Rayvin 5288]

4 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

It's been used as the pretext for wars and national expansion for centuries, it's naive to think otherwise.

 

Take a look at the Troubles in NI. No one was shooting each other over the issue of transubstantiation.

 

This is absolutely where I am on this too. I think the best you could argue is that religion is perhaps the lowest of low hanging fruit in terms of whipping people up into a murderous frenzy, but then Russia has still managed that in the invasion of Ukraine and there are no religious underpinnings to that of any real note.

 

I think it's actually culture in the end that is the thing we go to war over.

[PaddockLad 17635]

21 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

As an aside, I've seen a lot of people talk about this as a religious conflict but im not personally sure if it is one. Is it not nationalism that underpins this rather than religion? I know that religion is heavily intertwined of course but I'm not sure it on its own is the "why".

 

It’s sectarian iyam…

[Rayvin 5288]

5 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

From what we know, the Hamas terroists/militants whatever did what they did in the promise of paradise in the afterlife. Take away that, the current situation doesn't happen.

I'm not saying all wars are motivated by religion, but many are. Either between faiths, or within faiths. This war is not just between Judaism and Islam, but also a proxy for Sunni vs. Shiite. In the case of the Middle East, it is all about interpretation of ancient books and bloodlines, it's pathetic. And here the most significant war on our soil in recent times was also sectarian.

 

You might argue we'd be fighting about something else in a parallel universe. I don't know about that, but for me, I'm not letting religion off the hook. It is responsible for most of the evil in our lives imo. 

 

I understand the view but I just don't really agree, I think the people who want this stuff to happen would find ways to justify it either way. Definitely in this case tbh. The Israel/Palestine issue is a political one on the face of it, to me at least - I would imagine that after decades of perceived injustice and oppression at the hands of Israel, Hamas could have managed to have this happen with or without any religious implications.

 

Human nature and our propensity for being "led" is more of an issue for me than religion.

[Renton 21967]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

This is absolutely where I am on this too. I think the best you could argue is that religion is perhaps the lowest of low hanging fruit in terms of whipping people up into a murderous frenzy, but then Russia has still managed that in the invasion of Ukraine and there are no religious underpinnings to that of any real note.

 

I think it's actually culture in the end that is the thing we go to war over.

 

But why because not all wars are religious does that mean none are? Religion IS culture in this context. The true motivations of Putin though are much les transparent to me, but he is the sole cause of that conflict (agreed its not religious). 

[ewerk 31178]

If Israel were a muslim country and were behaving in the same way then would the Palestinians still be kicking off?

[Dr Gloom 22129]

12 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

Religion is the only justification for the creation and existence of Israel but otherwise I agree.

 

the only justification? 

 

the international community decided that the jewish people needed a home after the holocaust. it was the international community that carved up the land, and which granted political sovereignty in mandate palestine to the jews. 

 

it's also worth remembering that palestine was never an independent country - before the british mandate, it was part of the ottoman empire. israel then held the land in defensive wars. the religious claim is only part of the story.

[Rayvin 5288]

Just now, Renton said:

 

But why because not all wars are religious does that mean none are? Religion IS culture in this context. The true motivations of Putin though are much les transparent to me, but he is the sole cause of that conflict (agreed its not religious). 

 

Religion certainly is a significant component part of culture, but I suspect culture is the unifying theme in all cases where religion is implicated and indeed where it is not. Russia has a culture built up around strong man politics, a view that Russia is on its own against a hostile world and needs to defend itself proactively. China has a persecution complex baked into its culture. The US has some bastardised version of white saviour complex and exceptionalism.

 

These things have and will continue to push these countries to undertake violent acts. However at this point I think you'd be more inclined to suggest that those in power are just manipulating narratives that they're pushing - and I think my point in all of this is that religion is just another one of those narratives.

[ewerk 31178]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

 

the only justification? 

 

the international community decided that the jewish people needed a home after the holocaust. it was the international community that carved up the land, and which granted political sovereignty in mandate palestine to the jews. 

 

Well yeah, it was set up in order to protect the Jewish people therefore that's the justification for it.

[Dr Gloom 22129]

Just now, ewerk said:

 

Well yeah, it was set up in order to protect the Jewish people therefore that's the justification for it.

 

it's about creating a home for jewish people then, not religious jews. 

[ewerk 31178]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

it's about creating a home for jewish people then, not religious jews. 

 

I'm not sure the distinction was made at the time of the country's creation.

[Renton 21967]

8 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Religion certainly is a significant component part of culture, but I suspect culture is the unifying theme in all cases where religion is implicated and indeed where it is not. Russia has a culture built up around strong man politics, a view that Russia is on its own against a hostile world and needs to defend itself proactively. China has a persecution complex baked into its culture. The US has some bastardised version of white saviour complex and exceptionalism.

 

These things have and will continue to push these countries to undertake violent acts. However at this point I think you'd be more inclined to suggest that those in power are just manipulating narratives that they're pushing - and I think my point in all of this is that religion is just another one of those narratives.

 

I mean, ultimately its all tribal in one way or another. But what I am keen to point out here is that in this case it is very much about religion. Why? Because there is almost no other instrument that can brainwash people to undertake such acts of barbarism and self destruction. You won't get me to die for my country. There are millions of arabs who will die for their religion, and some crave it. 

 

Edit: btw, having posted this, I will bow out now. I appreciate how sensitive this is to people, working with both jewish and muslim people and also on this board. Of course that's another facet of it, censorship or in my case self-censorship. The last thing I will say though is, imo, there will never be peace in the Middle East as long as Religion is present. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Renton

[Dr Gloom 22129]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

 

I'm not sure the distinction was made at the time of the country's creation.

 

I just think it's important to remember that jewish people aren't defined by their religion. It is a race that isn't defined by skin colour. 

 

Antisemitism isn't religious intolerance, it's racial hatred. Jewish people aren't seen as white by those who hate us. And they don't just hate us because Jewish people worship at temple instead of church. 

 

David Baddiel puts it really well in his brilliant polemic Jews don't Count and in this clip 

 

 

 

 

 

[NJS 4409]

Gloom you keep using "carved out the land" as if it was empty and ready to be allocated - Palestinians/Muslims had lived their for centuries and then were politely expected to move to Egypt, Jordan or Lebanon leaving their homes and lives behind. Those who stayed lost those anyway. 

 

To me making a homeland for Jews (based on divine right-ism) was no different to New South Wales being gifted to the Aborigines or the mid-west US states being gifted to native Americans - all very noble but too late and completely erasing "nartural" occupation and immigration. 

[ewerk 31178]

5 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

I just think it's important to remember that jewish people aren't defined by their religion. It is a race that isn't defined by skin colour. 

 

Antisemitism isn't religious intolerance, it's racial hatred. Jewish people aren't seen as white by those who hate us. And they don't just hate us because Jewish people worship at temple instead of church. 

 

David Baddiel puts it really well in his brilliant polemic Jews don't Count and in this clip 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't disagree with any of that but I don't think the distinction was as clear back in the 40's.