Middle East Crisis

[Dr Gloom 21912]

41 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

It hasn't had any strategic success against Hamas that I am aware of, but if you read my posts I indicated that this was why, if Israel is committed to "wiping out Hamas", it cannot stop here. If it did stop here, then all of those deaths would be for absolutely nothing. It has to keep burning, razing and destroying until it has defeated Hamas. It is the only way it can justify the loss of life we are seeing. It cannot just 'stop'.

 

However I did not at any point say it was lashing out at the Palestinian people, which is how you phrased it. It is lashing out at Hamas in the same way the US lashed out at the Taliban.

 

i didn't mean to put words in your mouth. i agree that israel cannot defeat hamas without killing many more innocent people. i wonder what you would do in israel's position. can you go back to a policy of containment after what happened? what hamas did on israeli soil was a declaration of war. what is the alternative course of action from an israeli perspective? 

 

i don't think israel will stop until it removes hamas. who knows what the human cost will be? but i do think hamas can be defeated. the question is how do you put a plan in place to achieve the short term stability needed for a long-team peace settlement to be put on the table again? there is already a moderate Palestinian authority in the West bank that could potentially step into the void and govern Gaza in the future. at least they will talk to the israelis.

 

that's the optimistic view. the pessimistic one could also be true: a prolonged conflict, with no plan in place for what happens post-war, leading to a wider proxy conflict in the middle east with iran, russia and china on one side and saudi, israel and the west on the other.

 

Afghanistan was a completely different beast. The US had to react to 9/11 but the odds were always stacked against them - the Russians already proved it was in impossible war to win. And Iraq was completely pointless and illegal invasion and achieved nothing other than long term instability.

 

[Dr Gloom 21912]

i should add i think that "containing" hamas in gaza for almost 20 years was vile and also unsustainable. the end of the blockade might be one good thing to come out of this mess. again, that is the optimistic view. feels a million miles away from where we are currently. 

[Rayvin 5217]

I would find a way forward driven by compassion but that is because I understand the issue as one of oppressed vs oppressor, whereas you view it is a race/culture/religion war. I am not saying you are wrong, just highlighting the difference in our views. In my view, it obviously becomes possible for the oppressor to take steps to redeem the situation.

 

If I viewed it as a an existential race war (or however Israel sees this), I would do what Israel is doing. I have stopped judging Israel for this, I have accepted their view is what it is, and that is why I have said that they must continue to destroy people until they are safe. What I won't do of course is stop putting it this bluntly. I think it is important that we understand what we are accepting.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

9 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I would find a way forward driven by compassion but that is because I understand the issue as one of oppressed vs oppressor, whereas you view it is a race/culture/religion war. I am not saying you are wrong, just highlighting the difference in our views. In my view, it obviously becomes possible for the oppressor to take steps to redeem the situation.

 

If I viewed it as a an existential race war (or however Israel sees this), I would do what Israel is doing. I have stopped judging Israel for this, I have accepted their view is what it is, and that is why I have said that they must continue to destroy people until they are safe. What I won't do of course is stop putting it this bluntly. I think it is important that we understand what we are accepting.

 

it's easier to be compassionate from our ivory towers. less so when you're spending your days cowering in a bomb shelter. 

 

my family are - or at least were - compassionate. my auntie was in the Peace Now movement. but she isn't prepared to accept peace with hamas because hamas doesn't want peace with israel. i imagine we'd feel the same way if we lived there. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[Monkeys Fist 42378]

How are your cousins/kids getting on? 
 

I know one was in the military and one was trying everything to avoid it? 
 

I hope they’re all safe and well mate. 

[spongebob toonpants 3994]

24 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

it's easier to be compassionate from our ivory towers. less so when you're spending your days cowering in a bomb shelter. 

 

my family are - or at least were - compassionate. my auntie was in the Peace Now movement. but she isn't prepared to accept peace with hamas because hamas doesn't want peace with israel. i imagine we'd feel the same way if we lived there. 

Neither Hamas or Netanyahu want peace do I can't see any way forward at the moment.

Netanyahu has enabled Hamas for 15 years. It's going to take different leaders for both Isreal and Palestine and how that happens I don't know

[Rayvin 5217]

36 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

it's easier to be compassionate from our ivory towers. less so when you're spending your days cowering in a bomb shelter. 

 

my family are - or at least were - compassionate. my auntie was in the Peace Now movement. but she isn't prepared to accept peace with hamas because hamas doesn't want peace with israel. i imagine we'd feel the same way if we lived there. 

 

You have once again missed the main thrust of my post and zeroed in on something that bothers you. I am going to stop engaging with you on this both out of respect for your closeness to the issue, and out of respect for my own point of view which is getting lost in translation.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

24 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Neither Hamas or Netanyahu want peace do I can't see any way forward at the moment.

Netanyahu has enabled Hamas for 15 years. It's going to take different leaders for both Isreal and Palestine and how that happens I don't know

I agree. I think the Israelis have had enough of him and will eject him at the earliest opportunity. Don’t rule out another election post-war. There have been about 6 in the past few years. Who the fuck knows who they replace him with though. 

[Dr Gloom 21912]

16 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

You have once again missed the main thrust of my post and zeroed in on something that bothers you. I am going to stop engaging with you on this both out of respect for your closeness to the issue, and out of respect for my own point of view which is getting lost in translation.

I don’t feel like I’m struggling to read what you’re saying. I asked you a pretty simple question. 
 

You said if you were in Israel’s position you would try to find a way forward that is compassionate. I explained why people on the ground, even those who are pro-Palestine, may not be feeling quite so compassionate towards Hamas after what happened last month. 
 

Perhaps you can explain what I’ve misunderstood.

 

Or you can tell me how Israel might find a compassionate route forwards that would be acceptable to the Israel people. 

 

Or don’t, if you’d rather not debate it. 

[Rayvin 5217]

5 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

I don’t feel like I’m struggling to read what you’re saying. I asked you a pretty simple question. 
 

You said if you were in Israel’s position you would try to find a way forward that is compassionate. I explained why people on the ground, even those who are pro-Palestine, may not be feeling quite so compassionate towards Hamas after what happened last month. 
 

Perhaps you can explain what I’ve misunderstood.

 

Or you can tell me how Israel might find a compassionate route forwards that would be acceptable to the Israel people. 

 

Or don’t, if you’d rather not debate it. 

 

I'd rather not debate it. As I said, I understand why Israel feels that the destruction of so many innocent lives is necessary.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

43 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

How are your cousins/kids getting on? 
 

I know one was in the military and one was trying everything to avoid it? 
 

I hope they’re all safe and well mate. 

They’ve all been called up in some capacity. The peacenik kid you mentioned has been called up to the front line. He was recently given 24 hours leave so he could be with his mum on his 21st birthday. But he had to go back to Gaza a day later. He’s basically a child who wants nothing to do with the conflict but has no choice because he has been drafted. 

 

Three of the other kids are in intelligence so are out of harms way and the fourth is too young to have completed her full training so has been sent to the navy, also a relatively safe place to be. 
 

My cousins and elderly relatives are all going out of their mind with anxiety, as you can imagine. 

[Monkeys Fist 42378]

Ffs Gloomy, poor lad. 
 

I hope he gets home safely eventually, and is both physically and mentally ok. 
 

 

[Dr Gloom 21912]

37 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'd rather not debate it. As I said, I understand why Israel feels that the destruction of so many innocent lives is necessary.

okay fine. I am interested why you think the Israel, the oppressor, as you put it, would be motivated to take the steps to redeem the situation after the Hamas attack, when Hamas has made it clear the attacks would continue. But I respect your decision to not debate the issue. We won’t ever agree on this subject, I know that, and that’s fine. I know I’m in the minority on this board. There aren’t many here who are both pro Israel and pro Palestine. 

[Rayvin 5217]

9 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

okay fine. I am interested why you think the Israel, the oppressor, as you put it, would be motivated to take the steps to redeem the situation after the Hamas attack, when Hamas has made it clear the attacks would continue. But I respect your decision to not debate the issue. We won’t ever agree on this subject, I know that, and that’s fine. I know I’m in the minority on this board. There aren’t many here who are both pro Israel and pro Palestine. 

 

I am both too. I consider wanting Israel to relent to be a pro-Israel position on the basis that what they are doing makes this neverending. We don't disagree on outcomes, or the value of lives, we just disagree on why this is happening.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

40 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I am both too. I consider wanting Israel to relent to be a pro-Israel position on the basis that what they are doing makes this neverending. We don't disagree on outcomes, or the value of lives, we just disagree on why this is happening.

 

ah, okay - fair enough and respect to you for that. i was under the impression that you didn't support israel's right to exist. i think i probably got that from one of the antisemitism discussions back when it was call kicking off under corbyn's leadership, and we were debating whether labour should or shouldn't adopt the IHRA definitions of antisemitism. i don't want to reopen that can of worms so forgive me if i got that wrong. 

[Rayvin 5217]

22 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

ah, okay - fair enough and respect to you for that. i was under the impression that you didn't support israel's right to exist. i think i probably got that from one of the antisemitism discussions back when it was call kicking off under corbyn's leadership, and we were debating whether labour should or shouldn't adopt the IHRA definitions of antisemitism. i don't want to reopen that can of worms so forgive me if i got that wrong. 

 

Israel exists, so there is no reasonable question to be had now around whether it should or not. It does. All I want is for people to stop dying.

[RobinRobin 11258]

🥺 

[ewerk 30550]

Sadly when you go in to indiscriminately slaughter everything in sight then this is what happens.

[RobinRobin 11258]

2 hours ago, ewerk said:

Sadly when you go in to indiscriminately slaughter everything in sight then this is what happens.

Hopefully starts people just what Netanyahu is like and opposition grows. He needs the war continuing to stop being chucked out (or into prison). 

[Dr Gloom 21912]

He should be locked up. As should the deranged nationalist cunts in the knesset propping him up 

[ewerk 30550]

 

Quote

Israel player Dor Saar said on Wednesday that the Ireland team is "quite anti-Semitic".

 

What utter bullshit this is. If every criticism of Israel is anti-semitic then all Jews are responsible for Israel’s actions in Gaza.

 

Neither is true of course and Israel really aren’t doing their image any good on the world stage.

[Kid Dynamite 7025]

9 minutes ago, ewerk said:

If every criticism of Israel is anti-semitic then all Jews are responsible for Israel’s actions in Gaza.

 

Neither is true of course...

By that same logic is it not a bit shan of the Irish team to refuse to shake their hands? You can't blame Israeli netball players for the shitshow in Gaza

[ewerk 30550]

Individually no, you can’t blame them but they are representing Israel. It’s the same argument as saying Russian national sports teams should be allowed into international competitions because the individual players aren’t responsible for the actions of their government.

[Meenzer 15518]

They should refuse to play them at all, like Iran and co. do, if they're that bothered.

[ewerk 30550]

That’s a bit overly simplistic.