Middle East Crisis

[Dr Gloom 22137]

45 minutes ago, aimaad22 said:

 

Yet Israel has killed a far higher number of civilians so you can see why those lines get blurred.

 

 

Absolutely, no argument there. This is why I was confused when you said you dont know if Israel is doing the right thing with this 'war on Hamas' where they've already exceeded Hamas' cvilian death toll by several times? 

 

This is important because when Biden and much of Europe speak to Israel's 'right of self defence', it's like they think no one will have realized who's shedding more blood. At best they'll write if off as a disproportionate response. And that's before you even get into the occupation and war crimes. If that's not some sort of convoluted victim mentality then what is?

 

So I resort to the body count in the end. The powers that be have made it clear for decades now that they are ok with Palestine subject to illegal occupation and apartheid. If now in addition to that they can still look at the body count and continue to back Israel, then there is no moral ground whatsoever for them to stand on. History will remember it.

 

Israel does have the right to defend itself as a sovereign state. And it’s already obvious that there have been more Palestinian civilian casualties since the initial attack on Israeli civilians. The numbers have been widely reported. 
 

I said I don’t know if the war with Hamas is the right thing to do, mainly because of all the innocent lives that will be lost and partially because it falls into the trap Hamas (Iran, in other words) has set to ignite the Middle East. 

I do think Hamas has to be removed after what happened. -I’m no military expert but I doubt it can be done quickly or without significant civilian casualties. I don’t know what Israel’s alternative is. It can’t just sit back and do nothing after what happened. But I don’t know what happens if or when Hamas are removed.
 

I’d like to think Netanyahu will be removed too and replaced with a progressive who will sit around the table with Fatah. However I think you’re right to fear that another version Hamas will likely rise up, again aided by Iran.
 

I fear that when Netanyahu eventually goes  he will be replaced by another awful nationalist nutter who rejects the two state solution and continues the settlement expansion.
 

Israelis have been severely scarred by the massacre and regrettably I don’t think there is much appetite for peace talks any time soon. 

[Anorthernsoul 1221]

What a fucking mess.

[Andrew 4855]

No commentary on current events since the video is 8 years old but, for anyone wondering how we got here in a historical sense, here is a crash course on Israel & Palestine.

 

 

[Dr Gloom 22137]

 

bloody hell

 

 

more here 

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-770738

[Dr Gloom 22137]

13 hours ago, Andrew said:

No commentary on current events since the video is 8 years old but, for anyone wondering how we got here in a historical sense, here is a crash course on Israel & Palestine.

 

 

 

rory stewart's explainer is also really good.

 

EDIT - he starts his explainer earlier than the one you posted. it's important to remember the extent to which jewish people were persecuted throughout history  - even before the holocaust - from the roman days through to the pogroms of recent centuries, if you want to understand the origins of the zionist nationalist movement and how the Balfour declaration came about. the holocaust was of course the final straw that helped convince the international community that jewish people needed a homeland.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[Dr Gloom 22137]

where the fuck are the russian police? 

 

 

[Dazzler 10359]

2 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

where the fuck are the russian police? 

 

 

I hand on heart would not be surprised if that was the Russian police. It's ironic that Putin's whole reasoning for invading Ukraine was to remove the Nazis in power and yet here are his constituents acting like *checks notes* Nazis.

[Rayvin 5294]

18 hours ago, Dazzler said:

I hand on heart would not be surprised if that was the Russian police. It's ironic that Putin's whole reasoning for invading Ukraine was to remove the Nazis in power and yet here are his constituents acting like *checks notes* Nazis.

 

This. Russia is perfectly set up to be the second coming of the Nazis, right down to the far right philosophical bullshit.

[Dr Gloom 22137]

Turkey now too

 

 

[PaddockLad 17641]

I decided I wasn’t going to post in this thread because it’s a situation that’s almost beyond proper comprehension for me. However this offers clear thinking if not an actual plan

 

 

 

[Rayvin 5294]

Fractures forming in global Jewish communities over this.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/04/us-jews-rift-gaza-israel-crisis

 

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3957]

57 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Fractures forming in global Jewish communities over this.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/04/us-jews-rift-gaza-israel-crisis

 

Is this part of religion becoming less important to younger people.

[Andrew 4855]

9 hours ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

Is this part of religion becoming less important to younger people.

 

Most kinds of nationalism seem to be among the population in general, it does make sense.

[Dr Gloom 22137]

11 hours ago, Rayvin said:

Fractures forming in global Jewish communities over this.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/04/us-jews-rift-gaza-israel-crisis

 

the number of American Jews  who disapprove of Netanyahu and his government does not surprise me at all. He’s a war criminal.

 

I’m staggered that so many young American Jews don’t think Israel has the right to exist given it has just as much right to exist as any other sovereign state on the planet.   

[Dr Gloom 22137]

i went to a club on saturday. as i was queuing to collect my coat at the end of the night, there were loads of young people ahead of me chanting "from the river to the sea, palestine will be free" and "there is only one solution, intafada, revolution." 

 

this doesn't mean they're bad people, of course. they might just be ignorant to how these types of chants make jewish people feel, but i do think it demonstrates how a minority of hamas supporters at the pro palestine marches are influencing the wider movement. 

[spongebob toonpants 4123]

The depressing thing is that even if we they weren't being racist and assumed they were supporting the Palestinians it just underlines how the lack of intelligent honest reporting and debate in this country has lead to an uninformed ignorant populace, where even people who might have genuine good intentions have no idea what they are talking about

I don't know how the country recovers to be honest, I guess we are just witnessing the final moments long lingering death of the empire and the relevance of uk as a modern nation 

 

Or they might just have been cunts.

 

Horrible situation for you Gloomy though

[Dazzler 10359]

15 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

The depressing thing is that even if we they weren't being racist and assumed they were supporting the Palestinians it just underlines how the lack of intelligent honest reporting and debate in this country has lead to an uninformed ignorant populace, where even people who might have genuine good intentions have no idea what they are talking about

I don't know how the country recovers to be honest, I guess we are just witnessing the final moments long lingering death of the empire and the relevance of uk as a modern nation 

 

Or they might just have been cunts.

 

Horrible situation for you Gloomy though

 

Thick cunts most likely which makes them the most dangerous, as they just tear into things without the slightest bit of critical thinking. When I hear or read something I don't understand, the first thing I do is look it up and see if it helps my understanding. Plus then I always look at the other side, because the idea of having opinions based on one side of an argument/story gives me palpitations.

 

Some divvies just trust what their friend says, who may be equally as thick or have ulterior motives - at the end of every chain is always a completely wankerish psychopath with an axe to grind against something or someone.

 

All it takes is a second to Google something and realise the impact it might have if you start spewing it about without consideration. Especially, when you consider the implication that something like 'from the river to the sea' has in relation to the Jewish in Israel.

 

These people are too fucking thick to realise that by tearing head first into a pro-Palestine march / chants in the name of humanitarianism (in most cases I'm sure), that you're dehumanising the other side of the conflict. I understand the sentiment, and agree that innocent Palestinians should be free to live their lives safely and comfortably, but I also believe the same for the innocent Israelis that are being dragged into this just as much as the Palestinians.

[Dr Gloom 22137]

i keep seeing stuff like this all over my twitter feed 

 

 

i've been using twitter less often as a result. but seeing and hearing those chants on saturday made it feel real. 

[Holden McGroin 6781]

The stuff ive seen is a mix of 

2 hours ago, Dazzler said:

 

Thick cunts most likely which makes them the most dangerous, as they just tear into things without the slightest bit of critical thinking. When I hear or read something I don't understand, the first thing I do is look it up and see if it helps my understanding. Plus then I always look at the other side, because the idea of having opinions based on one side of an argument/story gives me palpitations.

 

Some divvies just trust what their friend says, who may be equally as thick or have ulterior motives - at the end of every chain is always a completely wankerish psychopath with an axe to grind against something or someone.

 

 

 

Normally from what newspapers these  knuckle draggers read. I scan the Sun, Daily Mail and Mirror every day  to get a feel for the slants they put on their articles. To be honest, if you read the Daily Mail or Sun then you'd probably be swayed. There is very little reporting on the atrocities in Gaza.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Holden McGroin

[Renton 21977]

2 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

i keep seeing stuff like this all over my twitter feed 

 

 

i've been using twitter less often as a result. but seeing and hearing those chants on saturday made it feel real. 

 

But unless I'm mistaken don't people on the bus there side against the anti-semitic woman? Don't get me wrong, the whole thing is a shit show. Feels like there is just something fundamentally wrong with the country at the moment. 

[Holden McGroin 6781]

9 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

But unless I'm mistaken don't people on the bus there side against the anti-semitic woman? Don't get me wrong, the whole thing is a shit show. Feels like there is just something fundamentally wrong with the country at the moment. 

 

 

Our country is full to the brim of morons. Some more harmless than others. I suspect its been like this for a long time but It feels like these candid videos brings them out into the spotlight. Could be worse... America for example.

[Dr Gloom 22137]

Just now, Renton said:

 

But unless I'm mistaken don't people on the bus there side against the anti-semitic woman? Don't get me wrong, the whole thing is a shit show. Feels like there is just something fundamentally wrong with the country at the moment. 

 

yeah, you're right - and that's a comfort.

 

perhaps it's old fashioned jewish anxiety, but it feels to me like the antisemites have been emboldened to harass and attack us - particularly online - but now in public spaces too.

 

until saturday i'd only seen it online - i avoided the pro palestnian marches for obvious reasons (despite the fact i'm pro palestinian).

 

i expected to hear the types of chants i mentioned at the marches - not necessarily in a nightclub

 

 

 

 

[Dr Gloom 22137]

@Renton - it's worth reading dean m thomson's thread in its entirety. explains why a lot of jewish people all over the world are feeling v anxious at this moment 

[Renton 21977]

11 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

@Renton - it's worth reading dean m thomson's thread in its entirety. explains why a lot of jewish people all over the world are feeling v anxious at this moment 

 

Out of interest, do you think the marches should be allowed to go ahead? I'll be honest, I don't like the images and videos in that thread but there were between 300,000 (minimum) and 800,000 prtoestors on the march on Saturday weren't there? So it's really hard to gauge the level of law breaking but it doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as Tommy Robinson's lot which was from a much smaller base? I'd personally hope people who behave violently or chant anti-semitic chants, carry anti-semtic placards are identified and where possible arrested post-march. 

[Dr Gloom 22137]

47 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Out of interest, do you think the marches should be allowed to go ahead? I'll be honest, I don't like the images and videos in that thread but there were between 300,000 (minimum) and 800,000 prtoestors on the march on Saturday weren't there? So it's really hard to gauge the level of law breaking but it doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as Tommy Robinson's lot which was from a much smaller base? I'd personally hope people who behave violently or chant anti-semitic chants, carry anti-semtic placards are identified and where possible arrested post-march. 

 

i 100% believe the marches should be allowed to go ahead. i also feel saddened that people on both sides have so little compassion or understanding for the "other side".  i'd love to see a march for peace where protestors could carry palestinain and israel flags shoulder to shoulder, but it isn't going to happen - we've already seen the mob at these marches attack a man for carrying an israel flag. there's a reason why most pro-palestinian jews are staying away. 

 

i am quite anxious about what i'm seeing at these marches tbh. it might be a minority, but it is not an insignificant one and my experience in the nightclub tells me i'm not just getting carried away because of stuff i've seen in my social media echo chamber. 

 

the EDL are disgusting. however, it is a free country and they also have a right to air their views and march - until it spills over into violence/inciting racial hatred in which case, the police should step in. 

 

the pro-palestinian marches are obviously harder to police in that sense because of the much bigger numbers involved. 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Dr Gloom