Middle East Crisis

[Dazzler 10357]

3 hours ago, Holden McGroin said:

Madeley is fucking hopeless

 

Fixed it for you. You didn't need the rest 

[Alex 35566]

There’s reports of as many as 500 being killed in a direct strike on a hospital in Gaza. ITV news and BBC have reported it (although the numbers can’t be verified yet). 
It’s just senseless slaughter upon senseless slaughter at this point. 

[trophyshy 7084]

9 hours ago, Alex said:

He’s accidental Partridge. Which is usually fairly harmless but offensive in this case (which only underlines your point). 

https://inews.co.uk/light-relief/quizzes/who-said-it-richard-madeley-or-alan-partridge-89516

[Renton 21973]

13 hours ago, Alex said:

There’s reports of as many as 500 being killed in a direct strike on a hospital in Gaza. ITV news and BBC have reported it (although the numbers can’t be verified yet). 
It’s just senseless slaughter upon senseless slaughter at this point. 

 

Awful. Some debate over who's responsible. I don't think Hamas or Islamic jihad have rockers this powerful so my guess is this is an Israeli weapon that has hit the wrong target. Things like this just risk engulfing the whole region. Israel has to stop the land invasion at this point, and the water and energy blockade, or the humanitarian casualties will be off the scale. 

[Gemmill 45987]

Biden's livid apparently cos he's on his way over there to see Netanyahu. Probably changes the complexion of their discussions.

[Andrew 4855]

35 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Awful. Some debate over who's responsible. I don't think Hamas or Islamic jihad have rockers this powerful so my guess is this is an Israeli weapon that has hit the wrong target. Things like this just risk engulfing the whole region. Israel has to stop the land invasion at this point, and the water and energy blockade, or the humanitarian casualties will be off the scale. 

 

An Israeli govt official claimed it was an intentional strike on a Hamas base in the hospital before deleting the tweet earlier today and pivoting to the party line.

[Dr Gloom 22134]

Why the fuck would you intentionally target a hospital? If true, it’s ever bit as barbaric as Hamas opening fire on fleeing civilians. The IDF has said previously that Hamas uses civilian sites such as hospitals and schools to store weapons. But howay man. There must be another way 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[Toonpack 9904]

What seems to have slipped under the radar is that Egypt warned the Israeli's a week before the attack that something big was brewing, they ignored it, wouldn't put it past Netanyahu  to have "let it happen" to shore up his position in a time of war. It remains what it has always been, an utter clusterfuck.

 

The hospital bombing (who knows) is horrific, but what did actually happen, there's pics today allegedly of the hospital car park which lots of burned out cars but no crater and the buildings look intact, there's even a tiled portico still standing adjacent to the burned out cars. Who the fuck knows what's really going on/happened (but as Andrew states - that IDF officials tweet is pretty damning).

 

I would say, it's very close to boiling out of control.

[Holden McGroin 6779]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

Why the fuck would you intentionally target a hospital? If true, it’s ever bit as barbaric as Hamas opening fire on feeling civilians. The IDF has said previously that Hamas uses civilian sites such as hospitals and schools to store weapons. But howay man. There must be another way 

it seems like all rules are off the table here.  I was about to say this is going to get nastier but I’m not sure thats possible . 

[Alex 35566]

19 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

What seems to have slipped under the radar is that Egypt warned the Israeli's a week before the attack that something big was brewing, they ignored it, wouldn't put it past Netanyahu  to have "let it happen" to shore up his position in a time of war. It remains what it has always been, an utter clusterfuck.

 

The hospital bombing (who knows) is horrific, but what did actually happen, there's pics today allegedly of the hospital car park which lots of burned out cars but no crater and the buildings look intact, there's even a tiled portico still standing adjacent to the burned out cars. Who the fuck knows what's really going on/happened (but as Andrew states - that IDF officials tweet is pretty damning).

 

I would say, it's very close to boiling out of control.

When you look at what’s happened since the initial attack, in terms of reports coming out of Israel, there a huge amount of anger re: the government. Whether they’ve been complicit in allowing this to happen or just incompetent is difficult to say. But in terms of the immediate response (like the people hiding in a Kibbutz for hours as Hamas hunted people down with no help coming to give one example) there is certainly a lot they need to answer to. There seems to be a lot of Israeli anger and fear amongst the general population over the military response too. It seems to be condemning the hostages to certain death. Of course there are no easy answers as to why this was able to happen but complacency to the point of gross negligence seems to the ‘best’ the Israeli government can plead

Edited October 18, 2023 by Alex

[Toonpack 9904]

10 minutes ago, Alex said:

When you look at what’s happened since the initial attack, in terms of reports coming out of Israel, there a huge amount of anger re: the government. Whether they’ve been complicit in allowing this to happen or just incompetent is difficult to say. But in terms of the immediate response (like the people hiding in a Kibbutz for hours as Hamas hunted people down with no help coming to give one example) there is certainly a lot they need to answer to. There seems to be a lot of Israeli anger and fear amongst the general population over the military response too. It seems to be condemning the hostages to certain death. Of course there are no easy answers as to why this was able to happen but complacency to the point of gross negligence seems to the ‘best’ the Israeli government can plead

 

Yep, so much for the renowned "best" intelligence service in the world, even with tip-offs they fucked up, which actually stinks, just a bit in itself.

[Renton 21973]

8 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

 

Yep, so much for the renowned "best" intelligence service in the world, even with tip-offs they fucked up, which actually stinks, just a bit in itself.

 

I don't like entertaining conspiracy theories but it probably would have suited Netanyahu to "allow" a minor incursion to provide red meat for the nutters, but maybe he was caught unaware of the extent? Either way, one of the few good things to come from this is that cunt is finished politcially. I just hope more moderates can fill the gap. 

[spongebob toonpants 4122]

Now obviously we all have a no Piers Morgan rule, but he gets an absolute schooling here. This bloke runs rings round him

 

https://x.com/brokenbottleboy/status/1714534404742131733?s=20

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by spongebob toonpants

[Rayvin 5292]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/

 

Almost half of Israelis want to expel Arabs full stop from Israel occupied territories. 79% believe Arabs should be second class citizens if they do remain. A significant number of these people identify as centrist.

 

This continues to feel like it's not a religious conflict to me.

 

[Meenzer 15716]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

A significant number of these people identify as centrist.

 

Starmer must condemn

 

[Rayvin 5292]

4 minutes ago, Meenzer said:

 

Starmer must condemn

 

 

I only actual reference that as relevant because it suggests that even moderate opinion in Israel is turning pro apartheid. This doesn't suggest that things get better if Netanyahu is removed.

[Rayvin 5292]

14 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Now obviously we all have a no Piers Morgan rule, but he gets an absolute schooling here. This bloke runs rings round him

 

https://x.com/brokenbottleboy/status/1714534404742131733?s=20

 

 

 

This guy is amazing and really sums up for me the fucked up thinking of some of the response to this.

[Dr Gloom 22134]

54 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/

 

Almost half of Israelis want to expel Arabs full stop from Israel occupied territories. 79% believe Arabs should be second class citizens if they do remain. A significant number of these people identify as centrist.

 

This continues to feel like it's not a religious conflict to me.

 

 

the survey is almost a decade old and is a poll of 5,000 people. i don't know if a poll today would return similar numbers. i don't suspect it would be a great look were it to be rerun today. angry and scared civilians who just came under attack tend to shift to the right, regrettably. 

 

however, in my experience of israel, this view is not the consensus. it is the view of the ultra-orthodox and the right-wing nationalists. remember that likud haven’t been unable to form a majority for several years now - look at how many elections were rerun because they failed to produce a government - and bibi is only clinging to power because he is propped up by literally the worst people in the country - real nigel farage types.

 

the tragedy is israel had a progressive government which was committed to the peace process in the 90s. real progress was made, arafat recognised the state of israel, the oslo accords presented a path to a two-state solution. then a nationalist fanatic assassinated rabin. since then netanyahu has dominated israeli politics, allowing settlements to expand and has been able to shift the centre ground in israel so far right that the peace process looks like a pipe dream. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 5292]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

the survey is almost a decade old and is a poll of 5,000 people. i don't know if a poll today would return similar numbers. i don't suspect it would be a great look were it to be rerun today. angry and scared civilians who just came under attack tend to shift to the right, regrettably. 

 

however, in my experience of israel, this view is not the consensus. it is the view of the ultra-orthodox and the right-wing nationalists. remember that likud have been unable to form a majority for several years now - look at how many elections were terun because they failed to produce a government - and bibi is only clinging to power because he is propped up by literally the worst people in the country - real nigel farage types.

 

the tragedy is israel had a progressive government which was committed to the peace process in the 90s. real progress was made, arafat recognised the state of israel, the oslo accords presented a path to a two-state solution. then a nationalist fanatic assassinated rabin. since then netanyahu has dominated israeli politics, allowing settelments to expand and has been able to shift the centre ground in israel so far right that the peace process looks like a pipe dream. 

 

To be clear, I'm not even "judging" Israeli people for this - I see how they get to this point and I don't doubt for a second that Britain would be sliding the same way under similar circumstances - I'd like to think I wouldn't be, but hell, who knows. I'm really just saying that I'm struggling to see how they get to a more moderate approach from here on their side.

 

The flip side of that is that it's exactly the same for the Palestinians.

[Dr Gloom 22134]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

To be clear, I'm not even "judging" Israeli people for this - I see how they get to this point and I don't doubt for a second that Britain would be sliding the same way under similar circumstances - I'd like to think I wouldn't be, but hell, who knows. I'm really just saying that I'm struggling to see how they get to a more moderate approach from here on their side.

 

The flip side of that is that it's exactly the same for the Palestinians.

yes. the only thing bombing hospitals is going to achieve is radicalising more Palestinians  

[Renton 21973]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

yes. the only thing bombing hospitals is going to achieve is radicalising more Palestinians  

 

Not just palestinians unfortunately. 

[Dr Gloom 22134]

i find this position puzzling. 

 

King of Jordan tells Olaf Scholz: We won’t take refugees from Gaza

https://www.politico.eu/article/king-jordan-abdullah-tells-german-chancellor-scholz-wont-take-refugees-from-gaza-israel-hamas-conflict/

[Rayvin 5292]

I would imagine the view will be that if they start taking refugees, Israel pushes harder to kick all Arab peoples out of Palestine and then locks the door behind them.

[Alex 35566]

They won’t want to (or be seen to) potentially harbouring Hamas either. But aye, if most of Gaza is displaced will the Palestinians ever be allowed back? 

[Dr Gloom 22134]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I would imagine the view will be that if they start taking refugees, Israel pushes harder to kick all Arab peoples out of Palestine and then locks the door behind them.

 

if it does that, it declares war on the entire arab world, ensuring there will never be peace. i don't think even netanyahu is that dumb

Edited October 18, 2023 by Dr Gloom