Middle East Crisis

[Meenzer 15518]

I suppose if you're trying to say "we disapprove of genocide a bit but not a lot" then it's the right approach.

[trophyshy 7083]

I refuse to play netball fullstop.  

[Dr Gloom 21912]

I blame the netball players 

 

[Meenzer 15518]

First they came for the netball players...

[ewerk 30560]

8 hours ago, Meenzer said:

I suppose if you're trying to say "we disapprove of genocide a bit but not a lot" then it's the right approach.

Bollocks, it’s about proportionality. Believe it or not but female basketball in Ireland isn’t a major sport. If they refuse to play then they’re thrown out of the tournament and heavily fined, basically fucking over the entire organisation for years. It’s like telling Colin Kaepernick ‘oh you’re against racism but not that much’ because he continued to play while taking the knee.

 

Would it have been better to keep their heads below the parapet and make no gesture at all?

Edited February 9 by ewerk

[Andrew 4747]

 

 

[ewerk 30560]

[Meenzer 15518]

I see now that some of the players did refuse to take part altogether, so fair play to them.

 

I take the point about funding. I presume that's also why the Irish basketball federation said it couldn't guarantee the Israeli players' safety if the match venue had been switched to Dublin as per one request (because it wouldn't have been in a position to handle the potential protests). It's a shame that some sports have the means to deal with that kind of thing and others don't, so you end up with situations like this that satisfy nobody.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

It was clear at the start of this thing, when Hamas invaded Israel to slaughter and rape innocent people, that they were backed by Iran, knowing how brutal the Israeli response would be.

 

Iran’s goal was to end the warming relations between Israel and Saudi and further destabilise the region. Until now it’s been through proxies, today they have launched missiles at Israel.  I don’t know what happens next but nothing good comes from this. 

[Renton 21579]

29 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

It was clear at the start of this thing, when Hamas invaded Israel to slaughter and rape innocent people, that they were backed by Iran, knowing how brutal the Israeli response would be.

 

Iran’s goal was to end the warming relations between Israel and Saudi and further destabilise the region. Until now it’s been through proxies, today they have launched missiles at Israel.  I don’t know what happens next but nothing good comes from this. 

 

I underestimated how brutal and indiscriminate Israel's response would be. The survivors of the holocaust, enacting a policy of ethnic cleansing at best, genocide at worst. Over 30,000 dead, mainly women and children. From what I understand, largely supported by the populace of Israel. No, nothing good can come from this. 

[Dr Gloom 21912]

11 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I underestimated how brutal and indiscriminate Israel's response would be. The survivors of the holocaust, enacting a policy of ethnic cleansing at best, genocide at worst. Over 30,000 dead, mainly women and children. From what I understand, largely supported by the populace of Israel. No, nothing good can come from this. 

I didn’t because I knew how awful the Israeli PM is - he won’t stop until Hamas has been removed and the hostages have been released and he doesn’t care how many innocent Palestinians are murdered in the process.
 

I don’t know what the latest polling suggests but everyone I know in Israel wants Netanyahu out. 
 

Unfortunately for the people of Gaza, Hamas is in charge and Israel has the worst possible leader for this moment because he won’t stop until the Americans tell him to. 
 

Iran have raised the stakes with this move though. What has until now been a proxy war could escalate to a much more worrying conflict with Iran/Russia on one side and Israel/West on the other 

Edited April 14 by Dr Gloom

[Renton 21579]

13 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

I didn’t because I knew how awful the Israeli PM is - he won’t stop until Hamas has been removed and the hostages have been released and he doesn’t care how many innocent Palestinians are murdered in the process.
 

I don’t know what the latest polling suggests but everyone I know in Israel wants Netanyahu out. 
 

Unfortunately for the people of Gaza, Hamas is in charge and Israel has the worst possible leader for this moment because he won’t stop until the Americans tell him to. 
 

Iran have raised the stakes with this move though. What has until now been a proxy war could escalate to a much more worrying conflict with Iran/Russia on one side and Israel/West on the other 

 

Netanyahu may be unpopular but support for the war is strong. I've watched some horrendous vox pops and seen opinion polls. And here you say Iran have escalated this from a proxy war without mentioning that Israel committed a fatal strike on a diplomatic target 2 weeks ago. I think they did this intentionally to elicit this response from Iran. They are pulling the strings here. 

Alos, wiping out Hamas and rescuing the hostages are mutually exclusive goals. 

Edited April 14 by Renton

[Dr Gloom 21912]

6 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Netanyahu may be unpopular but support for the war is strong. I've watched some horrendous vox pops and seen opinion polls. And here you say Iran have escalated this from a proxy war without mentioning that Israel committed a fatal strike on a diplomatic target 2 weeks ago. I think they did this intentionally to elicit this response from Iran. They are pulling the strings here. 

Alos, wiping out Hamas and rescuing the hostages are mutually exclusive goals. 

I’m not defending Israel here. Netanyahu knows what he’s doing and wants this as much as Iran does - war is all Netanyahu has left because support for him has massively diminished and he’s clinging to power thanks to the conflict.
 

You’re right that Israelis support the war. The rabid nationalists who don’t care about the slaughter of innocent Palestinians you mention don’t speak for everyone of course but there is wide support for the removal of Hamas and return of the hostages, yes. 

This is where the threat of escalation got real. Not exactly what the world needs alongside the Ukraine conflict.  

[spongebob toonpants 3994]

Iran had to be seen to respond to the Isreali attack otherwise they would have seen to be incredibly weak

The response they had, using drones and missiles that take hours to hit their targets and are relatively easily to knock out is hopefully more of a face saving response for a domestic audience than a genuine step towards all out war. 

It remains to be seen what Bibi's response is

[RobinRobin 11259]

18 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Iran had to be seen to respond to the Isreali attack otherwise they would have seen to be incredibly weak

The response they had, using drones and missiles that take hours to hit their targets and are relatively easily to knock out is hopefully more of a face saving response for a domestic audience than a genuine step towards all out war. 

It remains to be seen what Bibi's response is

Shouldn't have sold all their "good" drones to Putin. 

[Rayvin 5217]

On 16/11/2023 at 22:55, Rayvin said:

 

That is the only logical view if he at some point decides to back a ceasefire. That the only thing stopping him from doing it now is that not enough innocents have been killed to satisfy Israel.

 

He gets some respect from me if he sticks to his guns and pushes Israel to decimate all of Gaza in an attempt to destroy Hamas because at least that will mean it is genuinely the only option he thinks there is. If at some point he flips around and says we need a ceasefire cos 20k, 30k, 50k are dead, then no, he's getting nothing from me for that. All that tells me is that he knew ceasefire is what this would come to, and he was waiting for the death toll to hit a predefined number/global outrage to become unsustainable. Instead of, y'know, doing the thing he knew he should have done from the word go.

 

So right now I'm really hoping Israel are successfully going to permanently eradicate Hamas for the rest of time, because that's the hill Biden has chosen to die on.

 

On 16/11/2023 at 23:30, Rayvin said:

 

I am saying that there are two options out of this. One is a ceasefire. The other is the total annihilation of Hamas. Further to that, I am saying that at this point, with 10k dead, Biden better fucking believe that the only way out of this is the annihilation of Hamas, because if he turns around later at 20 or 30k dead and calls for a ceasefire, all I'm going to think is that for BIDEN PERSONALLY the key consideration in whether or not a ceasefire was the right course of action was how many innocent lives had been lost.

 

None of this has anything to do with Israel's view, which I strongly suspect is that the total annihilation of Hamas is achievable. Israel are not going to suddenly come up with a ceasefire as a policy suggestion on this though, so they will remain consistent to their view.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/04/israel-us-gaza-joe-biden-benjamin-netanyahu-phone-call Biden called for a ceasefire at 30k it turns out.

 

Israel wiping out Hamas was never remotely realistic unless they were going to commit a full on genocide through Gaza, so I want to just flag this post back up. The whole world turning around now and saying a ceasefire has to be reached is just stomach turning. The US knew, we knew, everyone fucking knew that Israel weren't going to fucking succeed. Why did we have to let them kill 30k+ people? Because apparently we needed to let Israel kill a sufficient number of innocents so as to be somewhat 'appeased'. The world let Israel collect a blood debt on Palestinian lives.

 

It is beyond sickening how the world has handled this.

[NJS 4377]

When the ICJ case gave their verdict, they accused the UNWRA of being Hamas to deflect the story by using torture and lies. 

 

Now the cowards in the west have "noticed" the extent of their bloodlust that's been there in their words and deeds since the outset, they've provoked Iran to deflect again and have the nerve to cite international law and go crawling to the UN who they literally accused of being Hamas a couple of months ago. 

 

It's sad there are horrible people willing to react when poked but it should be clear who the worst of the lot are. 

[Dr Gloom 21912]

To suggest a majority of Israelis support the indiscriminate slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza is a lot like blaming ordinary people in Gaza for Hamas invading Israel to butcher and rape teenagers at a music festival. 
 

Hamas don’t speak for all Palestinians. Nor does Bibi speak for all Israelis.

 

Of course there are rabid nationalists on both sides who want war, not peace. The problem right now is they’re in power in Gaza and in Israel.

 

I just heard Cameron on the radio urging Israel to not launch a retaliatory strike on Iran. I sincerely hope they listen. 

[aimaad22 4156]

It's staggering the absolute depths that the US and certain European governments have allowed themselves to be dragged down to, just to defend Israel. Not only could that have implications for their domestic politics (Trump anyone?) but whatever high moral standing/political correctness left (even if it was self declared) has been absolutely laid to waste and I think the implications of that may be more than what one may immediately realise. Without giving ear to conspiracy theories, just what kind of hold does Israel have over the US/UK/Germany to elicit such unabashed double standards?

 

Imo Iran's response was measured and reasonable. Most reports seem to be agree only militarty sites were targeted and it was done in a controlled manner. Most journos also seem to agree this was more a 'demonstration' and face saving retaliation than an attack meant to cause real damage. This is all based off a mix of western/eastern media reports and commentary of course, who knows really happened. 

 

I know I may never agree with Gloom and some others on this but to me the only real rogue, unhinged blood thirsty country in the region with the power to do serious harm right now is Israel. I wont comment in detail again about the 75 years of brutal occupation, and the massacre of 30,000+ souls. Nobody cares about Palestine, screw that. But they've also attacked UN officials, bombed UN schools, hopsitals and refugee camps, killed hundreds of reporters, deliberately targeted and slaughtered aid workers. And carried out unilateral airstrikes strikes on a fucking CONSULATE (aka declare war). If this not unhinged behaviour I don't know what is.

 

And its not just Netanyahu. I've lost count of the amount of not just genocidal but down right disgustal racial filth that has spewn forth from the mouths of Israeli military and government officials in recent months. If any of those had come from Russia or Iran or North Korea we'd be in uproar. Maybe having never been to Israel it's not fair to comment on the distrubing tik toks and viewing parties that Israeli social media has been full, but it does make you feel sick to the stomach. It's not just Bibi. 

 

I suspect that Israel's military response to Iran's response will be limited or very contained. Not like the Gaza 'offensive', because Iran can actually fight back.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

32 minutes ago, aimaad22 said:

It's staggering the absolute depths that the US and certain European governments have allowed themselves to be dragged down to, just to defend Israel. Not only could that have implications for their domestic politics (Trump anyone?) but whatever high moral standing/political correctness left (even if it was self declared) has been absolutely laid to waste and I think the implications of that may be more than what one may immediately realise. Without giving ear to conspiracy theories, just what kind of hold does Israel have over the US/UK/Germany to elicit such unabashed double standards?

 

Imo Iran's response was measured and reasonable. Most reports seem to be agree only militarty sites were targeted and it was done in a controlled manner. Most journos also seem to agree this was more a 'demonstration' and face saving retaliation than an attack meant to cause real damage. This is all based off a mix of western/eastern media reports and commentary of course, who knows really happened. 

 

I know I may never agree with Gloom and some others on this but to me the only real rogue, unhinged blood thirsty country in the region with the power to do serious harm right now is Israel. I wont comment in detail again about the 75 years of brutal occupation, and the massacre of 30,000+ souls. Nobody cares about Palestine, screw that. But they've also attacked UN officials, bombed UN schools, hopsitals and refugee camps, killed hundreds of reporters, deliberately targeted and slaughtered aid workers. And carried out unilateral airstrikes strikes on a fucking CONSULATE (aka declare war). If this not unhinged behaviour I don't know what is.

 

And its not just Netanyahu. I've lost count of the amount of not just genocidal but down right disgustal racial filth that has spewn forth from the mouths of Israeli military and government officials in recent months. If any of those had come from Russia or Iran or North Korea we'd be in uproar. Maybe having never been to Israel it's not fair to comment on the distrubing tik toks and viewing parties that Israeli social media has been full, but it does make you feel sick to the stomach. It's not just Bibi. 

 

I suspect that Israel's military response to Iran's response will be limited or very contained. Not like the Gaza 'offensive', because Iran can actually fight back.

Hamas makes me sick to my stomach. Everything they stand for is deplorable. I don’t know if you also feel that way about them. 

 

I watched footage of people in Gaza cheering the news of the October 7 attacks in the immediate aftermath of the invasion. Desecrating corpses, celebrating rape, murder and barbaric beheadings. This is equally unhinged and bloodthirsty, I’m sure you’ll agree. Hamas still holds more than 130 hostages

 

I feel the same way about Hamas as I do about Netanyahu and the awful nationalist Israelis who prop him up. They’re awful human beings and the collective punishment in Gaza has been sickening to observe, as have the interviews with the Israeli nationalists you mentioned - both in the ruling class and civilians - who cheer on the carnage the IDF has inflicted.

 

But as I have repeatedly tried to argue, this is not a case of good vs evil. Unfortunately both Gaza and Israel are controlled by awful rabid nationalists and both sides need the conflict, perversely, in order to stay in power. Bibi would have been out by now if it wasn’t for this. I don’t know what it will take to remove Hamas. I imagine this conflict has only served to radicalise more angry men to their cause. And so the cycle of death and hate continues.

 

But there are good and bad people on both sides of this conflict. Please don’t lose sight of that. The awful nationalists who reject peace don’t speak for all Israelis and Palestinians. 

 

And whatever you think about Israel, the brutal treatment of the occupied territories, or whether you question Israel’s right to exist in the first place or consider it a “Zionist entity”, it is clear why western powers support it. It is the Jewish homeland. The place post-holocaust that the international community gave to the Jewish people, after 6m were slaughtered by the nazis. It is also the key  strategic ally of the US in the Middle East. 

 

As for the nod to antisemitic conspiracy theories, I know you’re better than that. 
 

To your final point, Israel’s mission to wipe out Hamas was a direct response to the terrorist group’s threat to launch further attacks on Israeli soil after October 7. Hamas asked for this - don’t lose sight of that either. I hope Israel doesn’t raise the stakes by launching further attacks on iran. The world does not need this, with US/Russia tensions already high and Trump potentially about to enter the white house. But Israel surely would respond if the Iranian rockets continue to fall. 

Edited April 15 by Dr Gloom

[Dr Gloom 21912]

I hit send there Aimaad and almost instantly regretted it.
 

I’ve tried to avoid posting too much in this thread because it is so divisive and emotive and because I still see it through my family’s eyes. Life in Gaza is hell right now and I’m not here to argue otherwise but little is made anymore of the fact that rockets continue to fall on Israel every day from Hamas and other militant groups. I know this because my family still cower in bomb shelters 

An anonymous football message is a strange platform to choose to get into it but I have to stay away from this story on Twitter. The antisemitism is too much for me, and I find the  hate, and pile-ons too distressing. 
 

Like a lot of Jewish people I’m reluctant to make the case for Israel or Israelis to my friends either because, just like on this platform, I feel massively in the minority - you feel like a bad guy for trying to tell the other side of the story. Our leaders support Israel but a lot of progressive people who I agree with on most matters really fucking hate Israel and everything it stands for. It makes me wonder whether that would change if Israel ever elect a progressive leader again who wanted peace. 

[aimaad22 4156]

 

11 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

An anonymous football message is a strange platform to choose to get into it but I have to stay away from this story on Twitter. The antisemitism is too much for me, and I find the  hate, and pile-ons too distressing. 
 

 

I understand that Gloom, and agree that it's strange for a football messge board to be the place to talk about this, probably one reason why we all stepped back for a bit from this thread since last year. I dont intend on engaging on a long debate.

 

I could also take offence to the 'but do you condemn Hamas?' rhetoric that gets thrown around evertime Israeli bruatilites are mentioned. I condemn Hamas' actions on October 7. I also condemn 9/11 and 7/7 FYI. One single innocent life lost anywhere to indiscriminate attacks is unacceptable. I do however, also differentiate between a terror group led attacks killing 1400 people and an international state with an advanced military armed and funded backed by the US wiping out a whole cities and slaughtering 30,000 people (likely starving hundreds of thousands more), having occupied, blockaded and denied those people basic rights for over 70 years.  Do you know how many hostages Israel has taken and currently holds? Do you know how many people they've killed in the West Bank (no 'but Hamas' here right?) and how much more land has been stolen there? 

 

I also will not accept that calling that out or criticizing Israel's actions is automatically anti-semitimism. I do accept that anti-semtimism does rise in times like these. There are unfortunately many ignorant idiots everywhere. But Israel's officials have tried to hide behind the anti-semitimism and 'but Hamas' shield for far too long now. I'm honestly not nodding to the conspiracy theories above. I struggle to comprehend just how utterly unable to critize Israel's actions the US and UK are, even when they murder their own citiziens in cold blood. Ok so you say because of the support for the jewish homeland after the holocaust. Till when does this carte blanche last? Till they've taken all the land, then maybe Lebanon? Till a 100,000 die, 500,000, a million? Will it be ok for the US to then say Israel needs to be reigned in?

 

On a personal note Gloomy, for what it's worth I genuinely believe most people don't hate Israel for the hell of it or because they're anti-semitic. You can't just ignore decades of actions and pin it all down to that. It's what Israel has done for decades and continues to do so. For me at the very least, I hope you know that. These past few months in the US I've seen public opinion swing against Israel like never before. Even from people that were firmly 'two-sides' or 'Israel has a right to exist'. It's becoming harder and harder to justify it's actions based on those sentiments. I fear for what Netanyahu and his government are leading their people to. 

[Monkeys Fist 42379]

58 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

you feel like a bad guy for trying to tell the other side of the story

You shouldn’t ever back away from saying what you’re saying mate- innocent people on both sides of the conflict are suffering horribly through no fault of their own. 
 

I think people look at the imbalances in response from Israel’s right wing and forget that there are large numbers of Israelis who want Netanyahu out. 
Which leads me to…

1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

It makes me wonder whether that would change if Israel ever elect a progressive leader again who wanted peace. 

The old hippy side of me would love to think that would be he case, and, I guess the only way we’ll find out is if it happens, but, from the outside, it just appears that there so many extremists on both sides of the conflict, that I can’t see it happening soon. 
 

Which is a terrible state of affairs. 

 

 

[aimaad22 4156]

1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

I hit send there Aimaad and almost instantly regretted it

 

Same when I posted earlier today   I cannot forget you have folks down there who are affected. 

 

I know I've said a lot above but I dont intend on a drawn out to and fro. It is what it is. I think at the very least when tens of thousands are dying its okay, within boundaries, to voice your concerns even if they wont matter much. If at any point I've exceeded these best guess boundaries between message board friends that have never met, I hope you'll excuse me. I do read everything you say with the intention of listening and not just responding. 

 

Edit: I've mentioned before but I sympathize with the situation your family is in better than you might know. Growing up in a country where 50,000 lost their lives to suicide attacks post 9/11. Something every fucking day. I know what it feels like to walk to your school or mosque not completely sure you'll come back. Eventually did lose an uncle to one of the mosque attacks. He was a stubborn old bastard (ex army) though  , by eye witness accounts took down two attackers before being shot. And through all of this what much of the world was told was that we were the terrorists. 

Edited April 15 by aimaad22

[Dr Gloom 21912]

On 15/04/2024 at 19:57, aimaad22 said:

 On a personal note Gloomy, for what it's worth I genuinely believe most people don't hate Israel for the hell of it or because they're anti-semitic. You can't just ignore decades of actions and pin it all down to that. It's what Israel has done for decades and continues to do so. For me at the very least, I hope you know that. These past few months in the US I've seen public opinion swing against Israel like never before. Even from people that were firmly 'two-sides' or 'Israel has a right to exist'. It's becoming harder and harder to justify it's actions based on those sentiments. I fear for what Netanyahu and his government are leading their people to. 

I condemn a lot of what you mentioned in the post above - the blockade of Gaza, the wall, the settlement expansion into the occupied territories, and the current bombing of innocent people and the blockage of aid into Gaza. 
 

I condemn Netanyahu and his awful supporters. I also condemn Hamas and theirs.  
 

The thing that keeps me awake isn’t the solidarity people feel for innocent Palestinians. I feel solidarity with them too. it is that there isn’t the same level of solidarity for innocent victims slaughtered in similar circumstances in Yemen or Ukraine or Syria, or for persecuted Muslims in China. There aren’t marches in London on the same scale for these other oppressed people because hatred of their “oppressors” isn’t as strong as the hatred people feel towards Jews. 
 

You say this online and you’re accused of playing the victim. Maybe we’re all paranoid after the Holocaust. I don’t know. I don’t throw antisemitism accusations around lightly - and I certainly don’t believe criticism of Israel is antisemitic - but people will say “typical jew playing the victim” on Twitter - and that’s at the less offensive end of what I’ve read.
 

We’re talking about one of the most oppressed groups to ever walk the earth. Maybe we are a sensitive bunch. Jews were forced to flee from their homeland by the Romans, then persecuted across the lands they fled to, from the pogroms across Europe to the Holocaust. This is why the state of Israel matters so much to Jewish people. It is supposed to be a safe space for Jews. I’m not trying to defend the nationalists who want to annex Gaza (nor would I defend the clueless Palestinian supporters who chant “from the river to the sea”, which is why I could never join the London marches) but that’s why Israel’s right to exist is important to so many Jews and why we find the the language of hate towards the “Zionist entity” difficult to accept.

 

Like you, I am also worried about the effects of Netanyahu’s leadership. The chances for a new peace process recede and antisemitism increases around the world as long as he is in power. 

Edited April 19 by Dr Gloom