Middle East Crisis

[Dr Gloom 24239]

i should add i think that "containing" hamas in gaza for almost 20 years was vile and also unsustainable. the end of the blockade might be one good thing to come out of this mess. again, that is the optimistic view. feels a million miles away from where we are currently. 

[Rayvin 6433]

I would find a way forward driven by compassion but that is because I understand the issue as one of oppressed vs oppressor, whereas you view it is a race/culture/religion war. I am not saying you are wrong, just highlighting the difference in our views. In my view, it obviously becomes possible for the oppressor to take steps to redeem the situation.

 

If I viewed it as a an existential race war (or however Israel sees this), I would do what Israel is doing. I have stopped judging Israel for this, I have accepted their view is what it is, and that is why I have said that they must continue to destroy people until they are safe. What I won't do of course is stop putting it this bluntly. I think it is important that we understand what we are accepting.

[Dr Gloom 24239]

  On 20/11/2023 at 19:06, Rayvin said:

I would find a way forward driven by compassion but that is because I understand the issue as one of oppressed vs oppressor, whereas you view it is a race/culture/religion war. I am not saying you are wrong, just highlighting the difference in our views. In my view, it obviously becomes possible for the oppressor to take steps to redeem the situation.

 

If I viewed it as a an existential race war (or however Israel sees this), I would do what Israel is doing. I have stopped judging Israel for this, I have accepted their view is what it is, and that is why I have said that they must continue to destroy people until they are safe. What I won't do of course is stop putting it this bluntly. I think it is important that we understand what we are accepting.

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it's easier to be compassionate from our ivory towers. less so when you're spending your days cowering in a bomb shelter. 

 

my family are - or at least were - compassionate. my auntie was in the Peace Now movement. but she isn't prepared to accept peace with hamas because hamas doesn't want peace with israel. i imagine we'd feel the same way if we lived there. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[Monkeys Fist 46354]

How are your cousins/kids getting on? 
 

I know one was in the military and one was trying everything to avoid it? 
 

I hope they’re all safe and well mate. 

[spongebob toonpants 4481]

  On 20/11/2023 at 19:14, Dr Gloom said:

 

it's easier to be compassionate from our ivory towers. less so when you're spending your days cowering in a bomb shelter. 

 

my family are - or at least were - compassionate. my auntie was in the Peace Now movement. but she isn't prepared to accept peace with hamas because hamas doesn't want peace with israel. i imagine we'd feel the same way if we lived there. 

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Neither Hamas or Netanyahu want peace do I can't see any way forward at the moment.

Netanyahu has enabled Hamas for 15 years. It's going to take different leaders for both Isreal and Palestine and how that happens I don't know

[Rayvin 6433]

  On 20/11/2023 at 19:14, Dr Gloom said:

 

it's easier to be compassionate from our ivory towers. less so when you're spending your days cowering in a bomb shelter. 

 

my family are - or at least were - compassionate. my auntie was in the Peace Now movement. but she isn't prepared to accept peace with hamas because hamas doesn't want peace with israel. i imagine we'd feel the same way if we lived there. 

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You have once again missed the main thrust of my post and zeroed in on something that bothers you. I am going to stop engaging with you on this both out of respect for your closeness to the issue, and out of respect for my own point of view which is getting lost in translation.

[Dr Gloom 24239]

  On 20/11/2023 at 19:41, spongebob toonpants said:

Neither Hamas or Netanyahu want peace do I can't see any way forward at the moment.

Netanyahu has enabled Hamas for 15 years. It's going to take different leaders for both Isreal and Palestine and how that happens I don't know

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I agree. I think the Israelis have had enough of him and will eject him at the earliest opportunity. Don’t rule out another election post-war. There have been about 6 in the past few years. Who the fuck knows who they replace him with though. 

[Dr Gloom 24239]

  On 20/11/2023 at 19:53, Rayvin said:

 

You have once again missed the main thrust of my post and zeroed in on something that bothers you. I am going to stop engaging with you on this both out of respect for your closeness to the issue, and out of respect for my own point of view which is getting lost in translation.

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I don’t feel like I’m struggling to read what you’re saying. I asked you a pretty simple question. 
 

You said if you were in Israel’s position you would try to find a way forward that is compassionate. I explained why people on the ground, even those who are pro-Palestine, may not be feeling quite so compassionate towards Hamas after what happened last month. 
 

Perhaps you can explain what I’ve misunderstood.

 

Or you can tell me how Israel might find a compassionate route forwards that would be acceptable to the Israel people. 

 

Or don’t, if you’d rather not debate it. 

[Rayvin 6433]

  On 20/11/2023 at 20:15, Dr Gloom said:

I don’t feel like I’m struggling to read what you’re saying. I asked you a pretty simple question. 
 

You said if you were in Israel’s position you would try to find a way forward that is compassionate. I explained why people on the ground, even those who are pro-Palestine, may not be feeling quite so compassionate towards Hamas after what happened last month. 
 

Perhaps you can explain what I’ve misunderstood.

 

Or you can tell me how Israel might find a compassionate route forwards that would be acceptable to the Israel people. 

 

Or don’t, if you’d rather not debate it. 

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I'd rather not debate it. As I said, I understand why Israel feels that the destruction of so many innocent lives is necessary.

[Dr Gloom 24239]

  On 20/11/2023 at 19:33, Monkeys Fist said:

How are your cousins/kids getting on? 
 

I know one was in the military and one was trying everything to avoid it? 
 

I hope they’re all safe and well mate. 

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They’ve all been called up in some capacity. The peacenik kid you mentioned has been called up to the front line. He was recently given 24 hours leave so he could be with his mum on his 21st birthday. But he had to go back to Gaza a day later. He’s basically a child who wants nothing to do with the conflict but has no choice because he has been drafted. 

 

Three of the other kids are in intelligence so are out of harms way and the fourth is too young to have completed her full training so has been sent to the navy, also a relatively safe place to be. 
 

My cousins and elderly relatives are all going out of their mind with anxiety, as you can imagine. 

[Monkeys Fist 46354]

Ffs Gloomy, poor lad. 
 

I hope he gets home safely eventually, and is both physically and mentally ok. 
 

 

[Dr Gloom 24239]

  On 20/11/2023 at 20:20, Rayvin said:

 

I'd rather not debate it. As I said, I understand why Israel feels that the destruction of so many innocent lives is necessary.

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okay fine. I am interested why you think the Israel, the oppressor, as you put it, would be motivated to take the steps to redeem the situation after the Hamas attack, when Hamas has made it clear the attacks would continue. But I respect your decision to not debate the issue. We won’t ever agree on this subject, I know that, and that’s fine. I know I’m in the minority on this board. There aren’t many here who are both pro Israel and pro Palestine. 

[Rayvin 6433]

  On 20/11/2023 at 21:09, Dr Gloom said:

okay fine. I am interested why you think the Israel, the oppressor, as you put it, would be motivated to take the steps to redeem the situation after the Hamas attack, when Hamas has made it clear the attacks would continue. But I respect your decision to not debate the issue. We won’t ever agree on this subject, I know that, and that’s fine. I know I’m in the minority on this board. There aren’t many here who are both pro Israel and pro Palestine. 

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I am both too. I consider wanting Israel to relent to be a pro-Israel position on the basis that what they are doing makes this neverending. We don't disagree on outcomes, or the value of lives, we just disagree on why this is happening.

[Dr Gloom 24239]

  On 20/11/2023 at 21:20, Rayvin said:

 

I am both too. I consider wanting Israel to relent to be a pro-Israel position on the basis that what they are doing makes this neverending. We don't disagree on outcomes, or the value of lives, we just disagree on why this is happening.

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ah, okay - fair enough and respect to you for that. i was under the impression that you didn't support israel's right to exist. i think i probably got that from one of the antisemitism discussions back when it was call kicking off under corbyn's leadership, and we were debating whether labour should or shouldn't adopt the IHRA definitions of antisemitism. i don't want to reopen that can of worms so forgive me if i got that wrong. 

[Rayvin 6433]

  On 20/11/2023 at 22:04, Dr Gloom said:

 

ah, okay - fair enough and respect to you for that. i was under the impression that you didn't support israel's right to exist. i think i probably got that from one of the antisemitism discussions back when it was call kicking off under corbyn's leadership, and we were debating whether labour should or shouldn't adopt the IHRA definitions of antisemitism. i don't want to reopen that can of worms so forgive me if i got that wrong. 

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Israel exists, so there is no reasonable question to be had now around whether it should or not. It does. All I want is for people to stop dying.

[RobinRobin 12909]

🥺 

[ewerk 34155]

Sadly when you go in to indiscriminately slaughter everything in sight then this is what happens.

[RobinRobin 12909]

  On 16/12/2023 at 07:10, ewerk said:

Sadly when you go in to indiscriminately slaughter everything in sight then this is what happens.

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Hopefully starts people just what Netanyahu is like and opposition grows. He needs the war continuing to stop being chucked out (or into prison). 

[Dr Gloom 24239]

He should be locked up. As should the deranged nationalist cunts in the knesset propping him up 

[ewerk 34155]

 

  Quote

Israel player Dor Saar said on Wednesday that the Ireland team is "quite anti-Semitic".

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What utter bullshit this is. If every criticism of Israel is anti-semitic then all Jews are responsible for Israel’s actions in Gaza.

 

Neither is true of course and Israel really aren’t doing their image any good on the world stage.

[Kid Dynamite 7919]

  On 08/02/2024 at 19:27, ewerk said:

If every criticism of Israel is anti-semitic then all Jews are responsible for Israel’s actions in Gaza.

 

Neither is true of course...

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By that same logic is it not a bit shan of the Irish team to refuse to shake their hands? You can't blame Israeli netball players for the shitshow in Gaza

[ewerk 34155]

Individually no, you can’t blame them but they are representing Israel. It’s the same argument as saying Russian national sports teams should be allowed into international competitions because the individual players aren’t responsible for the actions of their government.

[Meenzer 16787]

They should refuse to play them at all, like Iran and co. do, if they're that bothered.

[ewerk 34155]

That’s a bit overly simplistic.

[Meenzer 16787]

I suppose if you're trying to say "we disapprove of genocide a bit but not a lot" then it's the right approach.