Middle East Crisis

[Alex 35083]

I thought the Pro-Palestinian march was  inevitable but I wish it hadn’t happened in many ways. There was always going to be an element of antisemitism and that was always going to be highlighted (correctly of course). This is then bound to detract from the people marching wanting a ceasefire etc. I don’t recall a March like this ever really achieving anything either. I guess I wouldn’t mind so much but as Gloom’s unfortunate experience suggests (and like SpongeBob alluded to) a lot of people who get involved haven’t got a fucking clue what they’re actually supporting. 

[Dr Gloom 21924]

what a car crash. Can’t believe i voted for this bloke. He hates Israel so much he just can’t bring himself to say Hamas has to go, let alone admit they’re terrorists or explain how a ceasefire would lead to peace talks between Israel and Hamas.
 

Just an absolutely useless politician 

[Alex 35083]

30 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

what a car crash. Can’t believe i voted for this bloke. He hates Israel so much he just can’t bring himself to say Hamas has to go, let alone admit they’re terrorists or explain how a ceasefire would lead to peace talks between Israel and Hamas.
 

Just an absolutely useless politician 

Loads of the people who’ve abandoned Labour because of Starmer want him back too, if social media is anything to go by. I’m fairly disappointed with Starmer, as has been discussed at length, but the idea Corbyn would be better, is PM material etc is fucking ludicrous. 

[Dazzler 9750]

12 minutes ago, Alex said:

Loads of the people who’ve abandoned Labour because of Starmer want him back too, if social media is anything to go by. I’m fairly disappointed with Starmer, as has been discussed at length, but the idea Corbyn would be better, is PM material etc is fucking ludicrous. 

 

No better than a Farage/Braverman etc really. Two sides of a very fucked up coin. Anyone who leans too far in one direction is always too stubborn and biased to see anything other than their own view point.

 

If he would have made a better PM than Starmer then he'd be our current PM as it's not like he didn't have absolute clusterfucks as opposition when he was in charge of labour.

 

The difference between Corbyn and the others above is that I don't think deep down he's a bad bloke. I think he wants peace, and is fundamentally a pacifist but his bias against Israel is obvious and it clearly clouds his judgement. Not to mention as a complete pacifist he is grossly unqualified to discuss the subject of conflict and how best to manage it, stop it, and bring peace. He just thinks if they stop bombing each other they'll have a little hug and split up the country fairly and be nice to each other.

 

[spongebob toonpants 3996]

1 hour ago, Dazzler said:

 

No better than a Farage/Braverman etc really. Two sides of a very fucked up coin. Anyone who leans too far in one direction is always too stubborn and biased to see anything other than their own view point.

 

If he would have made a better PM than Starmer then he'd be our current PM as it's not like he didn't have absolute clusterfucks as opposition when he was in charge of labour.

 

The difference between Corbyn and the others above is that I don't think deep down he's a bad bloke. I think he wants peace, and is fundamentally a pacifist but his bias against Israel is obvious and it clearly clouds his judgement. Not to mention as a complete pacifist he is grossly unqualified to discuss the subject of conflict and how best to manage it, stop it, and bring peace. He just thinks if they stop bombing each other they'll have a little hug and split up the country fairly and be nice to each other.

 

His domestic  policies were bang on, but foreign policy wise he was a fucking disaster

[Renton 21626]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

Loads of the people who’ve abandoned Labour because of Starmer want him back too, if social media is anything to go by. I’m fairly disappointed with Starmer, as has been discussed at length, but the idea Corbyn would be better, is PM material etc is fucking ludicrous. 

 

The way some of the left of the party are behaving currently is ridiculous. Starmer is a PM in waiting, there is literally nothing he can do to change the situation in Gaza right now but what he doesn't want to do is poison the well with relations Israel even before he is in office. All anyone outside Israel can do - including Biden - in this time of anger is to nudge them in the right direction, which is what he is doing. People need to get a grip and grow up and understand the realpolitik and stop seemingly wanting to be a perpetual party of protest over one that can actually change things for the better. 

[Dr Gloom 21924]

2 hours ago, spongebob toonpants said:

His domestic  policies were bang on, but foreign policy wise he was a fucking disaster

 

yeah, that's the tragic thing about him. his policies were generally well-liked and would have improved the lives of many. but he's so fucking useless at politics he was never going to be palatable 

[RobinRobin 11271]

Fuck's sake 🙁 

[Dr Gloom 21924]

6 hours ago, RobinRobin said:

Fuck's sake 🙁 

 

i'm seeing more and more stuff like this on twitter. 

 

i'm feeling quite anxious about where the world is heading - and all roads point to the 1930s. 

 

a global financial crash, a period of economic stagnation, the rise of nationalism, protectionism and trade war, strong men leaders elected, a dictator emboldened to expand west into europe, the rise of antisemitism 

 

it didn't end well last time 

 

 

[RobinRobin 11271]

9 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

i'm seeing more and more stuff like this on twitter. 

 

i'm feeling quite anxious about where the world is heading - and all roads point to the 1930s. 

 

a global financial crash, a period of economic stagnation, the rise of nationalism, protectionism and trade war, strong men leaders elected, a dictator emboldened to expand west into europe, the rise of antisemitism 

 

it didn't end well last time 

 

 

Indeed. Wasn't sure about posting it but I think we need to call it out.

Good on Collymore for once. 

[ewerk 30611]

 

Bit rude.

[Gemmill 44881]

He wears a wasteman's hat.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/18/on-the-frontline-of-blame-how-it-feels-to-be-jewish-in-uk-since-hamas-attack

 

[Kid Dynamite 7029]

There's a line in that article that says "all Jews are being blamed for Israel bombing Gaza". I don't disagree, and it's wrong.  
 

But on the flip side, it appears the Israel government are blaming all Palestinians for the actions of a minority of Hamas terrorists.
 

11,000 dead bodies illustrate the awful irony. 
 

Surely the dial has swung way past "Israel has the right to defend itself" by this point? Kids dying on unpowered ventilators is into war crime territory surely? 
 

 

[Rayvin 5223]

If Israel has decided that the only way it can keep itself safe is by destroying Hamas outright then we are all going to have to make peace with an incredible body count of innocents and children.

 

2 hours ago, Kid Dynamite said:

Surely the dial has swung way past "Israel has the right to defend itself" by this point? Kids dying on unpowered ventilators is into war crime territory surely? 
 

 

Problem is they've achieved jack shit so far in terms of defending themselves though. All they've done is kill 11k people, as far as I know they've not had any significant strategic successes versus Hamas leadership. So based on the incredibly narrow view that we seem to be moving down here, no, the dial has not swing past the right to defend themselves yet. They've achieved nothing but death so far.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

Hamas rockets are still falling on Israeli territory and air ride sirens are still ringing out daily so you’re right @rayvin that the attack on Gaza so far hasn’t removed the threat Hamas pose to Israel. 

 

My poor 78 year old auntie has been in and out of bomb shelters all week. So there is still a valid case when it comes to Israel defending itself. 

 

Hamas has also said it doesn’t want a ceasefire, it still holds more than 200 hostages and it has stated it will continue to launch similar attacks on Israeli civilians to those that we saw in October.  
 

Israel has fallen into the trap set by Hamas. But what option does it have? I’d love to know if anyone has an answer. Or any suggestions about how it ends the conflict as long as Hamas are still in charge in Gaza.

 

If there is ever going to be peace, both sides will need to make massive concessions. And extremists on both sides will have to be silenced.
 

In my opinion this means Israel winning this war in Gaza then installing Fatah to govern there.
 

Then Israel must withdraw from East Jerusalem and the West Bank and hand the illegal settlements over to Palestinian authority.

 

The latter part only happens if the Israeli people remove Netanyahu from power and elect a progressive leader.

 

This seems highly unlikely given the current makeup of the knesset. Israeli people will also be feeling even more scared than usual and more likely to support the right wing populist nutters, exactly as Hamas planned.

 

Hamas and Netanyahu need each other to survive. It’s outrageous that both are still in power. But as long as both are there, there will never be peace. 
 

The path to peace also means no “river to the sea” for Palestine. A proper two state solution is the only way out of this. 
 

But there will never be peace until Hamas is removed from power in Gaza. What is happening to innocent people there is appalling but how else does Israel do it? I have no answer. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[Kid Dynamite 7029]

1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

But there will never be peace until Hamas is removed from power in Gaza. What is happening to innocent people there is appalling but how else does Israel do it?

I don't have the answer either. But I'm 100% certain what is currently happening isn't the solution.
 

We've seen enough wars to learn that all that Israel is currently achieving is radicalising a whole new generation of Palestinians 

[Rayvin 5223]

1 hour ago, Kid Dynamite said:

I don't have the answer either. But I'm 100% certain what is currently happening isn't the solution.
 

We've seen enough wars to learn that all that Israel is currently achieving is radicalising a whole new generation of Palestinians 

 

They have to continue with it now, they can't just "learn" that with 11k dead. I agree with you completely but if they stop now then they've killed 11k innocents for no reason at all.

[Kid Dynamite 7029]

17 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

They have to continue with it now, they can't just "learn" that with 11k dead. I agree with you completely but if they stop now then they've killed 11k innocents for no reason at all.

Rather that than kill 20k, 30k or 40k for no reason at all. It's that logic that kept the Vietnam war going for so long 

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, Kid Dynamite said:

Rather that than kill 20k, 30k or 40k for no reason at all. It's that logic that kept the Vietnam war going for so long 

 

I think the point is that there is no logic to this though. This is a case of a government lashing out because it feels it needs to be seen to be doing something, no matter how horrific it is. See also Afghanistan.

[NJS 4386]

Maybe people like Netanyahu think killing 11k or however many Arabs is good as in and of itself? 

[Dr Gloom 21924]

there will be some extremists on the far right in israel who believe this, sadly, which is just as barbaric as the Hamas terrorists who beheaded isrseli civilians and want to destory israel and its people, for the crime of being jewish. 

 

i don't think it's a simple case of lashing out against the palestinian people as rayvin suggests though. if it were, they would have declared war on all of palestine and would be launching an offensive in the west bank also. they haven't done that. they have declared war on hamas and have only launched an offensive in gaza. 

 

hamas is a legitimate target. its continued control of gaza is an existential threat to Israel. in fact hamas wanted to make itself a target. it expected and sought this retaliation when it invaded israel, murdering 1,200 civilians and taking 250+ hostages 

 

israel's aim in this war is to remove hamas from gaza. that is a more achievable aim than bush and blair's "war on terror" across afghanistan and iraq.

 

there is of course the real threat that many more angry young men are radicalised in the process, as J69 points out, but gaza is a strip of land about the same size as east london. this is not the sprawling afghan mountains. israel has one of the most sophisticated militaries in the world. it should be able to defeat hamas in gaza. the civilian cost remains to be seen, but it is already appalling. and it isn't clear what happens next if or when israel wins the war. 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 5223]

35 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

i don't think it's a simple case of lashing out against the palestinian people as rayvin suggests though. if it were, they would have declared war on all of palestine and would be launching an offensive in the west bank also. they haven't done that. they have declared war on hamas and have only launched an offensive in gaza. 

 

I haven't suggested this.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

13 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I haven't suggested this.

 

 

you compared the offensive in gaza to afghanistan. you said all israel has done is lash out because it needs to be seen to be doing something and it it hasn't had any strategic success against hamas, only managing to kill 11k innocent people. 

 

i took that to mean you see it as a similar attempt to be seen to be responding to an attack, as dubya did after 9/11, without a cogent plan and with little regard for civilian life. 

 

if i got that right, i disagree. i don't see it as lashing out. if it was a simple case of lashing out, they would have attacked the west bank too. the point is they're not at war with palestine. or the palestinian people. they want to remove hamas. the reality is that objective isn't possible without massive civilian casualties. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 5223]

It hasn't had any strategic success against Hamas that I am aware of, but if you read my posts I indicated that this was why, if Israel is committed to "wiping out Hamas", it cannot stop here. If it did stop here, then all of those deaths would be for absolutely nothing. It has to keep burning, razing and destroying until it has defeated Hamas. It is the only way it can justify the loss of life we are seeing. It cannot just 'stop'.

 

However I did not at any point say it was lashing out at the Palestinian people, which is how you phrased it. It is lashing out at Hamas in the same way the US lashed out at the Taliban.