Middle East Crisis

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3887]

Right here’s my take after avoiding this like the plague. 
 

1. Jews have been treated horrifically for centuries, Edward I (cunt) kicked all of the jews out of England in 1290.

2. Of course the Jews need a homeland after all the shit they have been through.

3. Surprisingly Britain done fucked up by basically promising both Jews and Arabs Israel.

4. Then everything went to shit in about 1947 and hasn’t stopped.

[Rayvin 5217]

And I do want to make clear that every time I say 'what about the Palestinians' it isn't in an attempt to downplay what happened to Israel, it's actually a doubtless vain hope that we can prevent it repeating. Fundamentally I think 'what about the Palestinians' is a crucially important question in this to safeguard innocent lives on both sides - as much as 'what about the Israelis'. There cannot be peace unless both sides accept it, so the experience of both in this conflict is relevant even if all we cared about was Israeli lives.

[Dazzler 9716]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

He's trying to reposition this so that the argument is around why the left is supporting Hamas, rather than what they are actually doing, which is trying to defend the lives of Palestinians. His opening question attempts the same thing by asking us to ignore all the death on the Palestinian side as inflicted by Israel - I found it interesting that you could flip that whole point around and it would apply to him. "How many Jewish lives will it take for your to accept that Israel are not to blame for this" is just as easily transformed into "How many Palestinian lives etc etc". I also don't think the number of people dying corresponds to the full value of useful information in a discussion around why this is happening, it's just intended to be emotive.

 

The problem I have with it is that if he successfully paints the left as antisemitic and therefore acting out of irrational hatred for Jewish people, then who is left to speak for the Palestinian people? If he had, at the same time, acknowledged Israel's contribution to why we are here, then I might have a different lens on this. But he won't do that because he is playing to the domestic audience as much as anyone else.

 

I googled him, he's the leader of a political party - useful to understand where people are coming from when looking at things like this.

 

 

 

The problem is that this is not what Hamas are doing or have done. They have endangered the lives of Palestinians even more with their actions. They exist to wipe Israel and all Jews off the face of the earth, it's their sole aim - They will use innocent Palestinians as human shields to achieve this if they have to.

 

Hamas has never given a shit about Palestinian casualties, and they never will.

 

I would argue that the current Israeli government has the same attitude towards the Israeli citizens, though would not outwardly admit to it.

 

I read this as he's trying to point out that it isn't the fault of Jewish people for the acts of Hamas, which is completely true, as is it is not the fault of Muslims for the acts of the IDF.

[Rayvin 5217]

1 minute ago, Dazzler said:

 

The problem is that this is not what Hamas are doing or have done. They have endangered the lives of Palestinians even more with their actions. They exist to wipe Israel and all Jews off the face of the earth, it's their sole aim - They will use innocent Palestinians as human shields to achieve this if they have to.

 

Hamas has never given a shit about Palestinian casualties, and they never will.

 

I would argue that the current Israeli government has the same attitude towards the Israeli citizens, though would not outwardly admit to it.

 

I read this as he's trying to point out that it isn't the fault of Jewish people for the acts of Hamas, which is completely true, as is it is not the fault of Muslims for the acts of the IDF.

 

I agree that Hamas are not protecting the Palestinian people, but that's not the point here. He has aimed that article at the global left and essentially set out that the 'noise' coming from left wing politics is "pro Hamas" rather than being "anti subjugation and death".

[Dr Gloom 21912]

53 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

He's trying to reposition this so that the argument is around why the left is supporting Hamas, rather than what they are actually doing, which is trying to defend the lives of Palestinians. His opening question attempts the same thing by asking us to ignore all the death on the Palestinian side as inflicted by Israel - I found it interesting that you could flip that whole point around and it would apply to him. "How many Jewish lives will it take for your to accept that Israel are not to blame for this" is just as easily transformed into "How many Palestinian lives etc etc". I also don't think the number of people dying corresponds to the full value of useful information in a discussion around why this is happening, it's just intended to be emotive.

 

The problem I have with it is that if he successfully paints the left as antisemitic and therefore acting out of irrational hatred for Jewish people, then who is left to speak for the Palestinian people? If he had, at the same time, acknowledged Israel's contribution to why we are here, then I might have a different lens on this. But he won't do that because he is playing to the domestic audience as much as anyone else.

 

I googled him, he's the leader of a political party - useful to understand where people are coming from when looking at things like this.

 

 

why do the left defend Hamas and not Israel?  Are Hamas the good guys?

[Rayvin 5217]

3 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

why do the left defend Hamas and not Israel?  Are Hamas the good guys?

 

Are the left defending Hamas? Do you think I'm defending Hamas? No one who accepts killing children as part of their solution to anything can be considered to be "the good guys".

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3887]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

Are the left defending Hamas? Do you think I'm defending Hamas? No one who accepts killing children as part of their solution to anything can be considered to be "the good guys".

I see no good guys in this at all.

[Rayvin 5217]

Just now, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

I see no good guys in this at all.

 

You and me both.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

8 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Are the left defending Hamas? Do you think I'm defending Hamas? No one who accepts killing children as part of their solution to anything can be considered to be "the good guys".

I see lots of whataboutery used to defend  the Hamas attacks from the usual suspects, yes: Owen Jones, Novara media, Jeremy Corbyn’s old mate Chris Williamson (who Jezza didn’t want to expel from Labour) likes to call them freedom fighters.

 

It’s funny that the same people wouldn’t defend Israel’s actions in any way, or in any circumstances. I wonder why that could possibly be….

Edited October 26, 2023 by Dr Gloom

[Dr Gloom 21912]

3 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

I see no good guys in this at all.

Certainly not in leadership positions. My cousins are good guys. They don’t deserve to to see their kids go to the front line 

[Rayvin 5217]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

I see lots of whataboutery used to defend  the Hamas attacks from the usual suspects, yes: Owen Jones, Novara media, Jeremy Corbyn’s old mate Chris Williamson (who Jezza diet want to expel from Labour)  likes to call them freedom fighters.

 

It’s funny that the same people wouldn’t defend Israel’s actions in any way, or in any circumstances. I wonder why that could possibly be….

 

But if you apply that logic back the other way it makes everyone who won't defend Hamas an Islamophobe.

 

What is actually needed here is to focus compassionately on why this has happened so that we can save people's lives, and not continue in a cycle of death.

[ewerk 30550]

8 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

I see lots of whataboutery used to defend  the Hamas attacks from the usual suspects, yes: Owen Jones, Novara media, Jeremy Corbyn’s old mate Chris Williamson (who Jezza didn’t want to expel from Labour) likes to call them freedom fighters.

 

It’s funny that the same people wouldn’t defend Israel’s actions in any way, or in any circumstances. I wonder why that could possibly be….

 

Surely in this situation it's because the Palestinians are the oppressed people?

[Dr Gloom 21912]

If you can’t see any difference between Hamas and Israel then I think we better leave it. 

[Dazzler 9716]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

Certainly not in leadership positions. My cousins are good guys. They don’t deserve to to see their kids go to the front line 

 

I think that's all that really counts here though. I think the Palestinian people (not Hamas) are good guys too.

 

I dislike the term freedom fighters, they are terrorists. What they did was commit an act of terror and it should be labelled accordingly.

 

I think most people on the left other than the outwardly vocal ones you've mentioned will agree with that but I think the left are more inclined to accept the humanity of the Palestinians along with the humanity of the Israelis. The right see them as Muslims, and they are all the same etc so will stand with Israel because they are perpetually bigoted and have decided that they will hate Muslims this generation.

[Rayvin 5217]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

If you can’t see any difference between Hamas and Israel then I think we better leave it. 

 

If that's what you took from my post then I'm sorry. But I agree on leaving it.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

1 hour ago, ewerk said:

 

Surely in this situation it's because the Palestinians are the oppressed people?

 

But Hamas were the perpetrators this time.  I dunno man. I shouldn’t be surprised. People really fucking hate Israel 

[NJS 4377]

7 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

But Hamas were the perpetrators this time.  I dunno man. I shouldn’t be surprised. People really fucking hate Israel 

I agree theres an extra edge which is historical to the dislike of Jews and Israel but the ANC were opressesd and killed people, Mogabe's lot who I can't remember the name of were opressesd and killed people,. There are many  other examples  as well. 

 

Opressed people have committed horrible crimes against their oppressors  throughout history in response to horrible crimes against them - the British Empire filling that role on many, many occasions. 

 

The reason I find Israel to be a worse case is that they are funded, armed, excused and encouraged by the US and the rest of the west amid rank hipocrisy such as calling out Putin's crimes in Ukraine but ignoring Israel's currently. 

 

I also find it really sad that Israelis have become such horrible oppressors especially because of Jewish history as the oppressed and persecuted. 

[Alex 35060]

Sorry, when I made that post I didn’t realise the discussion had moved on so much so it doesn’t seem very relevant (re that blog post).

Edited October 26, 2023 by Alex

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3887]

1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

But Hamas were the perpetrators this time.  I dunno man. I shouldn’t be surprised. People really fucking hate Israel 

No they don’t, they really hate the actions of an increasingly authoritarian military regime practicing ethnic apartheid. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Kevin Carr's Gloves

[aimaad22 4156]

6 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

Does that make the war to remove Hamas ok? I don’t know. I do know that Israel can no longer exist alongside a terrorist group committed to wiping it off the map.
 

I deplore the idea that thousands more innocent civilians have to die to achieve the goal. I’d like to think Gaza’s people would overthrow Hamas but I suspect most people there hate Israel even more than they hate Hamas. 

  

Overthrow them with what? They struggle for basic necessities in the best of times. And do you think another Hamas would not arise if this one was wiped out? Considering the history of what Israel has been doing there, considering what they've done in the last 2 weeks? Don't we learn anything at all from history?

 

The moment we assign equal value to lives on either side, things become a lot simpler. The moment we start thinking its sad but possibly unavoidable for certain innocent lives to be lost to protect certain other innocent ones, we are lost. 

 

Somewhere else you said Hamas and Israel are not equal. Right. Lets look at the body count since this episode started, lets also look at it over the last 70 years or so as well. But here's the catch, each civilian life equals 1 regardless of which side.  

 

1 hour ago, Dr Gloom said:

People really fucking hate Israel 

 

I'll say this. If hate is throwing billions of dollars and latest weaponry at them whilst ignoring countless war crimes and openly genocidal statements from their officials, then I wish the world would hate the Palestinians a bit more too.

[aimaad22 4156]

I'm sorry, been trying to stay away but it's remarkable Israel is able to market itself as the victim in this 'conflict' in light of what's been done to Palestine. Any anybody who questions that is automatically anti-semitic? Or is someone that wants Israel wiped off the map?

 

 

[Dr Gloom 21912]

5 minutes ago, aimaad22 said:

  

Overthrow them with what? They struggle for basic necessities in the best of times. And do you think another Hamas would not arise if this one was wiped out? Considering the history of what Israel has been doing there, considering what they've done in the last 2 weeks? Don't we learn anything at all from history?

 

The moment we assign equal value to lives on either side, things become a lot simpler. The moment we start thinking its sad but possibly unavoidable for certain innocent lives to be lost to protect certain other innocent ones, we are lost. 

 

Somewhere else you said Hamas and Israel are not equal. Right. Lets look at the body count since this episode started, lets also look at it over the last 70 years or so as well. But here's the catch, each civilian life equals 1 regardless of which side.  

 

 

I'll say this. If hate is throwing billions of dollars and latest weaponry at them whilst ignoring countless war crimes and openly genocidal statements from their officials, then I wish the world would hate the Palestinians a bit more too.

Most decent people do assign equal value on all lives.

 

Hamas and Israel are not equal. Israel and Palestine are equal, or at least they ought to be. 

 

Israel is a democracy. Hamas is a terrorist group that is committed to wiping Israel off the map. 
 

Netanyahu should be behind bars. But Rabin once sat around the table with Arafat. No Israeli leader could ever sit around the table with Hamas in the unlikely event peace talks ever begin again.  

[Dr Gloom 21912]

4 minutes ago, aimaad22 said:

I'm sorry, been trying to stay away but it's remarkable Israel is able to market itself as the victim in this 'conflict' in light of what's been done to Palestine. Any anybody who questions that is automatically anti-semitic? Or is someone that wants Israel wiped off the map?

 

 

you’ll have to point out where someone said that, I must have missed it. 
 

the Israelis massacred and the hostages taken by Hamas were victims, right? All lives are equal after all.

 

You can be a perpetrator and a victim, can’t you? 

[Dr Gloom 21912]

32 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

No they don’t, they really hate the actions of an increasingly authoritarian military regime practicing ethnic apartheid. 

Israel is a lot of things, but an authoritarian military regime? Bibi hasn’t taken over the judiciary…. at least, not yet. It’s a democracy. 
 

People hate Israel for all kinds of reasons.

 

Some people hate the government for the occupation, the settlements and the blockade and for the continued oppression of Palestinian people.

 

Some people hate the way Israel was created and don’t believe it even has the right to exist.

 

Some people hate Israel because of what it represents: a homeland for Jewish people. 
 

Some people (Hamas) want to wipe Jews and Israel off the map altogether 

[aimaad22 4156]

46 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Israel is a democracy. Hamas is a terrorist group that is committed to wiping Israel off the map. 

 

Yet Israel has killed a far higher number of civilians so you can see why those lines get blurred.

 

45 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

the Israelis massacred and the hostages taken by Hamas were victims, right? All lives are equal after all.

 

Absolutely, no argument there. This is why I was confused when you said you dont know if Israel is doing the right thing with this 'war on Hamas' where they've already exceeded Hamas' cvilian death toll by several times? 

 

This is important because when Biden and much of Europe speak to Israel's 'right of self defence', it's like they think no one will have realized who's shedding more blood. At best they'll write if off as a disproportionate response. And that's before you even get into the occupation and war crimes. If that's not some sort of convoluted victim mentality then what is?

 

So I resort to the body count in the end. The powers that be have made it clear for decades now that they are ok with Palestine subject to illegal occupation and apartheid. If now in addition to that they can still look at the body count and continue to back Israel, then there is no moral ground whatsoever for them to stand on. History will remember it.