Middle East Crisis

[Rayvin 5217]

I'm creating this thread due to the lock put on the previous thread. I'm not going to put forward any views or sentiments of my own in this opening post but just want to outline that since this is obviously a very sensitive topic which affects some people on the board quite personally, especially at the moment, we should have some care in terms of emotive wording and so on.

 

That said, it is also important that people are allowed to freely discuss the factual realities of the situation, naturally.

[Dr Gloom 21911]

Why BBC doesn't call Hamas militants 'terrorists' - John Simpson
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67083432

 

The US, the EU and the UK all describe Hamas as a terrorist group - but not the BBC!

 

I actually agree with this well-explained piece by John Simpson. 

[NJS 4376]

Semantics are strange in this area. The old terrorist/freedom fighter thing and also full on supporters of Israel complaining about it being described as an apartheid state only to be shown quotes from Mandela and Tutu calling it that. 

 

There's also a tweet from last year from Von der Leyen calling Russian cutting off of power and water war crimes while of course backing Israel doing it. 

 

If the defence of Israel's actions continue so full on, Putin will be pissing himself. 

[Renton 21557]

Wait what? I had forgot Rayvin was a mod!

 

Better tread lightly from now on.

 

 Was gonna say Gloom, don't know of you listen to the News Agents, but today they are talking about what it feels like to be a diasporic jew at the current time. I haven't listened to it yet but it's normally spot on. I never even knew Soppell and Maitlis are Jewish. 

 

Started with the old Woody Allen joke. 

Are you a jew? 

No. I'm just Jewish. 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Renton

[Renton 21557]

5 minutes ago, aimaad22 said:

 

I was just thinking that. No wonder the likes of China and India gave zero shites about the Russian sanctions and continued to trade with them. China could tomorrow say well feck you very much and steamroll Taiwan because they feel like doing so. Again, it's not that the US might care a bit more in that case because they'll be concerned about the Taiwanese people, their main interest there is the advanced micro-chips Taiwan produces.  

 

Taiwan would need to commit an absolutely heinous terrorist crime on the Chinese mainland for this comparison to hold hold. The Russian comparison is fucking insulting mind. 

 

To be clear, I don't agree with collective punishment on this scale. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Renton

[aimaad22 4156]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

 

Taiwan would need to commit an absolutely heinous terrorist crime on the Chinese mainland for this comparison to hold hold. The Russian comparison is fucking insulting mind. 

 

To be clear, I don't agree with collective punishment on this scale. 

 

Ok so I've deleted my post again  Purely because I've zero intention of scoring points here. Feel shitty enough seeing people do that on Twitter and the like so it's the last thing we need here.  I was trying to say that we've got very little moral high ground left anywhere. Not that that's new. 

 

Trying to make sense of a situation where there's none really. Those that said 'humanity is fucked' and promplty left the discussion got it spot on I think  

[Rayvin 5217]

33 minutes ago, aimaad22 said:

 

Ok so I've deleted my post again  Purely because I've zero intention of scoring points here. Feel shitty enough seeing people do that on Twitter and the like so it's the last thing we need here.  I was trying to say that we've got very little moral high ground left anywhere. Not that that's new. 

 

Trying to make sense of a situation where there's none really. Those that said 'humanity is fucked' and promplty left the discussion got it spot on I think  

 

The West's inconsistency on all such matters is an embarrassment to all of us tbh. The cost of pragmatism over principle ultimately.

[aimaad22 4156]

Not that anybody else has covered themselves in glory to be honest including their Middle Eastern neighbours. Take the Yemen civil war also, I dont recall any regional or Islamic power call out the atrocities there or try and make a real effort to put an end to the killing and mass starvation fuelled by the proxy war. It was hardly in the news actually.

 

 

[Dr Gloom 21911]

4 hours ago, aimaad22 said:

Not that anybody else has covered themselves in glory to be honest including their Middle Eastern neighbours. Take the Yemen civil war also, I dont recall any regional or Islamic power call out the atrocities there or try and make a real effort to put an end to the killing and mass starvation fuelled by the proxy war. It was hardly in the news actually.

 

 

not a strategic ally of the west. The Saudis are. It’s pure hypocrisy. War crimes are war crimes - wherever they occur 

[Dr Gloom 21911]

8 hours ago, Renton said:

 

Taiwan would need to commit an absolutely heinous terrorist crime on the Chinese mainland for this comparison to hold hold. The Russian comparison is fucking insulting mind. 

 

To be clear, I don't agree with collective punishment on this scale. 

it will be hard for Israelis to be this level-headed but I agree with the sentiment. I wonder how the British public would respond if gunmen had massacred families in their beds here 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/09/israel-war-hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-government

[Dr Gloom 21911]

10 hours ago, Renton said:

Ish. IshWait what? I had forgot Rayvin was a mod!

 

Better tread lightly from now on.

 

 Was gonna say Gloom, don't know of you listen to the News Agents, but today they are talking about what it feels like to be a diasporic jew at the current time. I haven't listened to it yet but it's normally spot on. I never even knew Soppell and Maitlis are Jewish. 

 

Started with the old Woody Allen joke. 

Are you a jew? 

No. I'm just Jewish. 

 

 

yes, I listened to it yesterday. I prefer it to the rest is politics now. Really good way to stay informed, listening to the three of them provide daily news analysis while cooking dinner for the kids. Also, you get a sense of their personality and opinion which was constrained when they were at auntie 

[Alex 35055]

I think it’s easy to forget that when something like this happens Jewish people all over the world, including here in the UK, come under a far greater threat of attacks on their person, property, places of worship, graveyards etc. Just another depressing aspect to all this

[Dazzler 9694]

2 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

it will be hard for Israelis to be this level-headed but I agree with the sentiment. I wonder how the British public would respond if gunmen had massacred families in their beds here 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/09/israel-war-hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-government

 

I think, like I presume is the case with most Israelis, we'd want immediate action against those responsible. Then a sickening sense of guilt/remorse (for most) when we realise our government has sanctioned cutting off basic utilities to innocent families including children, as well as flattening residential areas filled with innocent people. I'd like to think most Russians have that same view of Ukraine too, even if they are too scared to speak out for fear of repercussion.

 

Who we determine as responsible and who the government ultimately target are often two different things. Same as Iraq/Afghanistan. 

 

War crimes are just terrorist attacks under a different name IMO. No one comes out of it looking good, and it is only the innocent who will suffer the consequences.

[Dazzler 9694]

13 minutes ago, Alex said:

I think it’s easy to forget that when something like this happens Jewish people all over the world, including here in the UK, come under a far greater threat of attacks on their person, property, places of worship, graveyards etc. Just another depressing aspect to all this

 

As do muslims tbf. 

[Dr Gloom 21911]

39 minutes ago, Alex said:

I think it’s easy to forget that when something like this happens Jewish people all over the world, including here in the UK, come under a far greater threat of attacks on their person, property, places of worship, graveyards etc. Just another depressing aspect to all this

 

it's why israel matters to a lot of jewish people. jews have been hated, attacked, murdered and displaced since records began.

 

israel was carved up to give them a safe space after the second world war. a lot of jews see it the one place that would welcome them if there was another holocaust. all that being said, and while it's a fascinating place to visit, i wouldn't fancy living there. 

[Holden McGroin 6580]

On a side note. I read through a few pages of the other locked thread.

 

Some real characters on there

 

Rob W, Parky, Happy Face, Fop, Manc-Mag, snakehips.

 

anywhere know of their whereabouts these days?

[Gemmill 44787]

Parky is still on N-O, I think. Rob W got into cycling and overdosed on PEDs. Fop is Laurence Fox. snakehips probably got caught up in a #metoo sting (joke if you're reading this, you filthy pervert!)

 

Not sure about HF and manc-mag.

[Gemmill 44787]

Sorry didn't realise I was posting in this thread. Delete if required.

[Rayvin 5217]

3 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

it will be hard for Israelis to be this level-headed but I agree with the sentiment. I wonder how the British public would respond if gunmen had massacred families in their beds here 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/09/israel-war-hamas-benjamin-netanyahu-government

 

True but how would the British public have responded if we had been Palestine in the 1940s, is the other side of that.

 

It's been a while since i read up on this but I'm fairly sure Palestine was constantly targeted by Zionist terrorists prior to the formation of Israel (and who also massacred women and children) and then effectively they were given victory by the British. Would we have accepted that in our country, especially if it was imposed on us by a colonial power?

 

I really don't see how anyone fixes this because the whole situation is flatly impossible at the outset. Its incredibly sad.

[Rayvin 5217]

I will add that I don't see any way for Hamas to ever get what it wants through any means - which makes this latest escalation cruel and spiteful at the cost of many lives. A people without hope, acting hopelessly.

[Alex 35055]

1 hour ago, Dazzler said:

 

As do muslims tbf. 

I think being a smaller community etc there’s a greater risk perhaps here in the UK to Jews. But I don’t want to take sides or anything and you’re right. You just need to look at post 9/11 where anyone who looked vaguely Arabic, Middle Eastern or South Asian were at a greater risk 

[Alex 35055]

8 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

True but how would the British public have responded if we had been Palestine in the 1940s, is the other side of that.

 

It's been a while since i read up on this but I'm fairly sure Palestine was constantly targeted by Zionist terrorists prior to the formation of Israel (and who also massacred women and children) and then effectively they were given victory by the British. Would we have accepted that in our country, especially if it was imposed on us by a colonial power?

 

I really don't see how anyone fixes this because the whole situation is flatly impossible at the outset. Its incredibly sad.

I think it was a civil war the British would’ve withdrawn from, leaving the belligerents to it, but the Holocaust (understandably) changed everything. 

[Dr Gloom 21911]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

True but how would the British public have responded if we had been Palestine in the 1940s, is the other side of that.

 

It's been a while since i read up on this but I'm fairly sure Palestine was constantly targeted by Zionist terrorists prior to the formation of Israel (and who also massacred women and children) and then effectively they were given victory by the British. Would we have accepted that in our country, especially if it was imposed on us by a colonial power?

 

I really don't see how anyone fixes this because the whole situation is flatly impossible at the outset. Its incredibly sad.

 

i didn't know about that. do you have a source?

 

it says here on wykipedia that jewish militia groups attacked british government and military targets in response to migration restrictions imposed on jews by the brits in mandate palestine. 

[Rayvin 5217]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

i didn't know about that. do you have a source?

 

it says here on wykipedia that jewish militia groups attacked british government and military targets in response to migration restrictions imposed on jews by the brits in mandate palestine. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

 

I'm not really trying to make a big thing of this terrorism angle I'm really just responding to the point about how Britain would react. I think we'd go to war on either side of it tbh.

[Dazzler 9694]

49 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

it's why israel matters to a lot of jewish people. jews have been hated, attacked, murdered and displaced since records began.

 

israel was carved up to give them a safe space after the second world war. a lot of jews see it the one place that would welcome them if there was another holocaust. all that being said, and while it's a fascinating place to visit, i wouldn't fancy living there. 

 

I think it's important to remember why Israel exists (as well as it's right to exist), but also what the long term impact it has had on the Palestinians too. They never really had a say in the creation of Israel, and if that's not managed with empathy then it allows hatred to grow and fester, and what has happened since becomes sadly inevitable. Hamas should be strung up for their actions, but it shouldn't come at the cost of the innocent people who also just want the right to exist, the same as their neighbours.