o'neil's salubrious playground of the dorset uber wealthy v howe's scally infested coop of decapitated fowl

[thebrokendoll 9451]

15 hours ago, Renton said:

 

I might be wrong but personally I think of lots of good reasons to play them. Mainly because they're absolute dogshit midtable and SJP will be absolutely bouncing, a cauldron of hate full of pissed up pissed off fans. If this doesn't get the players up for it, nothing will. 

 

was a strangely subdued atmosphere against these cunts last season. can't see that being the case this time round!

[Renton 21979]

3 minutes ago, thebrokendoll said:

 

was a strangely subdued atmosphere against these cunts last season. can't see that being the case this time round!

 

There certainly wasn't in the night time match in 2019 when they beat us 2-3. I expect it to be closer to that, although with a lot less scallies infiltrating the ground. 

[Isegrim 9896]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

There certainly wasn't in the night time match in 2019 when they beat us 2-3. I expect it to be closer to that, although with a lot less scallies infiltrating the ground. 

There is still the chance of tge atmosphere becoming flat pretty quick if the team does put in as much effort as last Saturday with the cup final in their minds tbh.

[wykikitoon 20711]

1 hour ago, Christmas Tree said:

But apart from create the goal, what else did the Romans….

 

 

One swallow doesn't make a summer 

[The Fish 10963]

1 hour ago, wykikitoon said:

Whilst I agree with have no option but to use him. Especially with Bruno out. In the final if we have everyone fit he is not in the starting 11.

 

He's lazy and not the world magician he thinks he is and what some people thinks he is. 

 

It's been talked and talked on here about playing to his strengths. But what's that? He did a couple of runs across their box, head down and not looking and it ended up in absolutely fuck all. He labour's too much. Walks, has fuck all zip and energy about him. 

 

He wasn't the worse from the bits and bats I saw of the game certainly. But you would think he would be busting his bollocks to impress and show Eddie why he should be starting. Especially with a final coming up. But he just doesn't seem to care about it. 

 

He's not lazy, that's just not true. What he doesn't do, is press intelligently. 

 

The question is two-fold ow to get the best out of ASM in Bruno's absence, and how to do it when the king is back?

 

Without Bruno we should play 4-2-3-1. ASM given more license to act as a pure outlet, rather than part of the pressing machine. We need to release the ball to him more often and earlier. The majority of our play goes through Trippier and because of that ASM is often isolated from the interplay. To get him on the ball more he either needs to play more centrally, or we need to play a lower block deeper line - inviting the opposition onto us more. Under Bruce he was the main outlet, every  game the tactic was simple - get the ball to Allan. To get the best from him we need to at least bend that way a little more. 

 

Joelinton and Longstaff have the energy and pressing intelligence to more than make up from ASM's limitations in that regard. Play Gordon and Almiron on the flanks and you've got 4 players who will press for 90 minutes. Isak and ASM should move through the half spaces and into the channels. Joelinton and Longstaff haven't the vision to thread the needle so the responsibility falls to Isak and ASM to find pockets where a pass is both more obvious, and more achievable. 

 

When Bruno is back ASM should be employed to break through high and mid blocks, his ability to carry the ball at pace, commit defenders and disrupt shape isn't bettered by anyone else in the squad. With a low block, patience and control is a better tool and a tool that isn't really in ASM's bag. 

[The Fish 10963]

Was supposed to go to this game. Not devastated that I 'missed out' to be honest. Missing Bruno is certainly impacting the way we play, but everyone looks a little leggy, a little disjointed. Passing was atrocious all game, and Almiron's goal aside we never really clicked.

 

Part of it has to be Bruno's absence, but there were so many unforced errors, wayward simple passes, and bad decisions. It can't just be because we're without 1 player. Perhaps the number of changes we've had to make in the past few games? Maybe players are distracted by the Cup Final?

[Renton 21979]

 

I've always found the concept of any player being lazy as just odd. I mean they're being watched live by 52,000 at the gorund and millions on TV, and I'm supposed to believe they just think "Naah, can't be arsed chasing that"? Remember having this argument countless times in the past about Robert. SOme [players have the attribute of being able to run for 90 mins and chase everything down, some are headless chickens, some just can't tackle, some need to reserve their energy for other purposes. I doubt any are lazy be the normal meaning of the word. 

[spongebob toonpants 4128]

13 minutes ago, The Fish said:

Was supposed to go to this game. Not devastated that I 'missed out' to be honest. Missing Bruno is certainly impacting the way we play, but everyone looks a little leggy, a little disjointed. Passing was atrocious all game, and Almiron's goal aside we never really clicked.

 

Part of it has to be Bruno's absence, but there were so many unforced errors, wayward simple passes, and bad decisions. It can't just be because we're without 1 player. Perhaps the number of changes we've had to make in the past few games? Maybe players are distracted by the Cup Final?

I think we are all, players and supporters, having a bit of a post semi-final wobble. 

Shit's got real now and I think the reality of being in a final and a Champions league place has got everyone just a bit nervous. Just being a couple of percent off can make all the difference.

Very telling that Howe in his post match presser was emphasising how important to stay positive.

In a way I almost think even though points wise 3 draws is worse than WDL, keeping the unbeaten run is better in the long term

 

[wykikitoon 20711]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

I've always found the concept of any player being lazy as just odd. I mean they're being watched live by 52,000 at the gorund and millions on TV, and I'm supposed to believe they just think "Naah, can't be arsed chasing that"? Remember having this argument countless times in the past about Robert. SOme [players have the attribute of being able to run for 90 mins and chase everything down, some are headless chickens, some just can't tackle, some need to reserve their energy for other purposes. I doubt any are lazy be the normal meaning of the word. 

Isak lost the ball and instead of throwing his hands in the air acting like an entitled little cunt he chased it and won it back. In comparison ASM rarely does that. He walks back when our play is broken down. It's in comparison to his team mates. Not Joe public. 

[The Fish 10963]

4 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I've always found the concept of any player being lazy as just odd. I mean they're being watched live by 52,000 at the gorund and millions on TV, and I'm supposed to believe they just think "Naah, can't be arsed chasing that"? Remember having this argument countless times in the past about Robert. SOme [players have the attribute of being able to run for 90 mins and chase everything down, some are headless chickens, some just can't tackle, some need to reserve their energy for other purposes. I doubt any are lazy be the normal meaning of the word. 

Yeah, Saint Maximin just isn't a defensively minded player. I don't mean he can't be arsed to do it, he's just not got the skills or mindset to do it well. Said it before, but nobody gets in a tizz when Dummett doesn't beat a couple of players, turn on a sixpence and drop a perfect cross onto the head of the striker. The trouble is that when the rest of the team are good at pressing, good at harassing an opponent, ASM's limitations are under a spotlight. 

[The Fish 10963]

6 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

I think we are all, players and supporters, having a bit of a post semi-final wobble. 

Shit's got real now and I think the reality of being in a final and a Champions league place has got everyone just a bit nervous. Just being a couple of percent off can make all the difference.

Very telling that Howe in his post match presser was emphasising how important to stay positive.

In a way I almost think even though points wise 3 draws is worse than WDL, keeping the unbeaten run is better in the long term

 

Also think we've been forced into a few changes lately, changes that have disrupted any kind of rhythm. Not just Bruno, but Wilson getting a niggle, Willock going off, etc.

[spongebob toonpants 4128]

1 minute ago, The Fish said:

Also think we've been forced into a few changes lately, changes that have disrupted any kind of rhythm. Not just Bruno, but Wilson getting a niggle, Willock going off, etc.

Yes, but to a large extent we were taking things in our stride before. I just feel there's been a drop of energy from both the players and the crowd, and I think it's perfectly understandable

 

 

[wykikitoon 20711]

8 minutes ago, The Fish said:

Yeah, Saint Maximin just isn't a defensively minded player. I don't mean he can't be arsed to do it, he's just not got the skills or mindset to do it well. Said it before, but nobody gets in a tizz when Dummett doesn't beat a couple of players, turn on a sixpence and drop a perfect cross onto the head of the striker. The trouble is that when the rest of the team are good at pressing, good at harassing an opponent, ASM's limitations are under a spotlight. 

 

I don't think people get in a tizz when he isn't pressing. But it doesn't mean he can just stand on the edge of the pitch throwing his hands up in the air. 

[Howay 12496]

We shouldn’t change the approach that has got us to a final and 4th place to try and get more out of a player that has always been what he is. Our main issue for me is we aren’t playing the aggressive style that’s got us here, our performances have lacked bite as our lot look nervous to risk missing the final. 
 

ASM isn’t the difference maker he’s made out to be tbh, our fans look for anything as proof he is just as CT is doing with his involvement at the weekend - he deserves credit for his hand in the goal but the goal was made by Longstaffs fantastic run. Even Fish saying “beat a couple of players, turn on a sixpence, and drop a perfect cross on a strikers head” I think implying this is something ASM does? It’s something he’s done maybe once in his years in our team. His recent goal involvements have come when he is doing what he’s meant to do in the system. We shouldn’t change all we have been doing to try and accommodate a bloke that doesn’t have the impact he’s made out by some, losing a player from our press isn’t something we can do and it’ll impact our overall performances negatively. Murphy is the better option, he’s direct and while he spoons chances it’s not like ASM isn’t also fucking hopeless at finishing, Murphy also plays the way we need a player in that position to play and helps our press. 

[Renton 21979]

1 minute ago, wykikitoon said:

 

I don't think people get in a tizz when he isn't pressing. But it doesn't mean he can just stand on the edge of the pitch throwing his hands up in the air. 

 

Yeah, but I wonder how much of that is cognitive bias as you've prejudged him? Maybe he was out of breath in that particular instance, maybe you're not crediting him with other instances?  Wasn't there a stat of the last game reporting how much grass he had covered and how much he had in fact tracked back? Anyway, we've had this discussion countless times, I think we're all agreed ASM just isn't the right fit for the side we've become. That's not his fault, he's just been outgrown. 

[wykikitoon 20711]

2 minutes ago, Howay said:

We shouldn’t change the approach that has got us to a final and 4th place to try and get more out of a player that has always been what he is. Our main issue for me is we aren’t playing the aggressive style that’s got us here, our performances have lacked bite as our lot look nervous to risk missing the final. 
 

ASM isn’t the difference maker he’s made out to be tbh, our fans look for anything as proof he is just as CT is doing with his involvement at the weekend - he deserves credit for his hand in the goal but the goal was made by Longstaffs fantastic run. Even Fish saying “beat a couple of players, turn on a sixpence, and drop a perfect cross on a strikers head” I think implying this is something ASM does? It’s something he’s done maybe once in his years in our team. His recent goal involvements have come when he is doing what he’s meant to do in the system. We shouldn’t change all we have been doing to try and accommodate a bloke that doesn’t have the impact he’s made out by some, losing a player from our press isn’t something we can do and it’ll impact our overall performances negatively. Murphy is the better option, he’s direct and while he spoons chances it’s not like ASM isn’t also fucking hopeless at finishing, Murphy also plays the way we need a player in that position to play and helps our press. 

Nailed it IMO. 

[Alex 35568]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Yeah, but I wonder how much of that is cognitive bias as you've prejudged him? Maybe he was out of breath in that particular instance, maybe you're not crediting him with other instances?  Wasn't there a stat of the last game reporting how much grass he had covered and how much he had in fact tracked back? Anyway, we've had this discussion countless times, I think we're all agreed ASM just isn't the right fit for the side we've become. That's not his fault, he's just been outgrown. 

He was on course to run about 10k iirc. Nothing out of the ordinary and he only played for about two thirds of the match anyway 

[Howay 12496]

Can we all also stop making comparisons of him with Robert, Ben Arfa, etc he’s done nothing to deserve those comparisons he’s more like Traore from Wolves. 

[The Fish 10963]

18 minutes ago, Howay said:

We shouldn’t change the approach that has got us to a final and 4th place to try and get more out of a player that has always been what he is. Our main issue for me is we aren’t playing the aggressive style that’s got us here, our performances have lacked bite as our lot look nervous to risk missing the final. 
 

ASM isn’t the difference maker he’s made out to be tbh, our fans look for anything as proof he is just as CT is doing with his involvement at the weekend - he deserves credit for his hand in the goal but the goal was made by Longstaffs fantastic run. Even Fish saying “beat a couple of players, turn on a sixpence, and drop a perfect cross on a strikers head” I think implying this is something ASM does? It’s something he’s done maybe once in his years in our team. His recent goal involvements have come when he is doing what he’s meant to do in the system. We shouldn’t change all we have been doing to try and accommodate a bloke that doesn’t have the impact he’s made out by some, losing a player from our press isn’t something we can do and it’ll impact our overall performances negatively. Murphy is the better option, he’s direct and while he spoons chances it’s not like ASM isn’t also fucking hopeless at finishing, Murphy also plays the way we need a player in that position to play and helps our press. 

 

He is a difference maker to be honest. When he was a mainstay in the team he was leading it in terms of chances made, shot creating actions, for himself and others. He is undoubtedly phenomenal at taking on players, he's got a decent shot and is much better at laying on chances for others too. The issue isn't that he's not very good, the issue is that the way Howe has the rest of the team playing is very, very different to the way that ASM has been used to thriving in. That's not to say we have to rip up the style that's got us, like you say, 4th in the league and to a Cup Final. But there's definitely a way to add his very obvious strengths to the way we play. 

 

You mention Murphy there and for me I cannot see what benefit Murphy brings to the team beyond someone who is a willing presser. Murphy has poor delivery, poor finishing, wayward passing, and can't dribble past players with anything like the frequency of ASM. Gordon is much better at those things than Murphy, but his end product hasn't been great at Everton or in his brief time here. 

[Renton 21979]

16 minutes ago, Howay said:

Can we all also stop making comparisons of him with Robert, Ben Arfa, etc he’s done nothing to deserve those comparisons he’s more like Traore from Wolves. 

 

His talent (Arfa) or impact on the team (Robert) wasn't the comparison being made though. It was the notion he is lazy, which as with the others, I personally refute. 

[Howay 12496]

20 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

He is a difference maker to be honest. When he was a mainstay in the team he was leading it in terms of chances made, shot creating actions, for himself and others. He is undoubtedly phenomenal at taking on players, he's got a decent shot and is much better at laying on chances for others too. The issue isn't that he's not very good, the issue is that the way Howe has the rest of the team playing is very, very different to the way that ASM has been used to thriving in. That's not to say we have to rip up the style that's got us, like you say, 4th in the league and to a Cup Final. But there's definitely a way to add his very obvious strengths to the way we play. 

 

You mention Murphy there and for me I cannot see what benefit Murphy brings to the team beyond someone who is a willing presser. Murphy has poor delivery, poor finishing, wayward passing, and can't dribble past players with anything like the frequency of ASM. Gordon is much better at those things than Murphy, but his end product hasn't been great at Everton or in his brief time here. 

The issue is his strengths have to come at the detriment of our system, we haven’t got the quality throughout the side to accommodate a player that doesn’t help the press. Pressing from the front and turnovers high up the pitch has been our bread and butter all season, this is something Murphy is good at which is why I highlighted him - if everyone was fit I’d play Gordon there but I’m anticipating Willock is out. 
 

ASM does create a lot of these stats, but what is the quality like on these? As when we watch the games he’s not putting in high quality crosses that give his teammates a good chance at the ball, or setting up brilliant shooting chances. His main issue for me is that he doesn’t do enough of that, he often beats a man or two which is the difference he has over many but rather than utilize that advantage created and set up a team mate he continues his run and it ends up fizzling out. It seems like he generates quantity rather than quality. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Howay

[Howay 12496]

3 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

His talent (Arfa) or impact on the team (Robert) wasn't the comparison being made though. It was the notion he is lazy, which as with the others, I personally refute. 

Fair enough, I see the comparison a lot which is what I find absurd but get the context you mean. 

[Christmas Tree 4820]

2 hours ago, wykikitoon said:

One swallow doesn't make a summer 

  He’s only had 6 PL starts and has been ravaged by injury. He’s scored one beautiful volley and got 3 assists.

 

I would say you are being a tad harsh on him.

[Renton 21979]

I hope he reads this and scores the winner in the cup final, and you doubters can line up to suck his plums.

 

[Howay 12496]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

I hope he reads this and scores the winner in the cup final, and you doubters can line up to suck his plums.

 

Nothing would make me happier than being wrong about him. He comes across as a good bloke and I have a lot of fond memories watching him play, but on the flip side he’s extremely frustrating and it seems like it’s never going to work in this system. If the Fish is correct and there’s a way to blend him into our system without losing what got us here then I hope we do it and it works, but I’m far from convinced it’s doable.