World Cup 2022

[Dr Gloom 22151]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Hold on though, they're a completely different set of players as is the opposition. You can't make the counterfactual. Consider what Southgate achieved as a manager before the England job, fuck all. Similarly, do you really think Robson wouldn't have won a major trophy with the present crop? I'm not so sure. 

I have no idea. Different managers, different players, different eras.  Who the fuck knows? What we do know is Southgate got closer than any other England manage since Ramsey. And for that he deserves credit.

 

I think the FA will give him a final crack at the euros if he wants it. 

[wykikitoon 20739]

6 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

I have no idea. Different managers, different players, different eras.  Who the fuck knows? What we do know is Southgate got closer than any other England manage since Ramsey. And for that he deserves credit.

 

I think the FA will give him a final crack at the euros if he wants it. 

They've already said he's in charge until then. 

 

He fucked up the euro final with late subs and yesterday again late negative subs. 

[RobinRobin 11566]

11 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

 

You heard it there first. 

[Sonatine 11542]

 

[ewerk 31207]

When’s the last time England actually performed well at a tournament before Southgate? 96? Southgate has had you lot putting in credible performances for three tournaments in a row. But for bad refereeing and Harry Kane missing a pen you could be looking at a great chance to win the WC. They’re the fine margins between disappointment and becoming a legend. It was encouraging to see Southgate not revert to a back five yesterday and show some belief in his own side’s quality.

 

It would be very foolish of him to walk now. Despite the solid work he’s done for England there wouldn’t exactly be a number of PL clubs clamouring to appoint him which says a lot about how international football is viewed these days.

[Renton 22002]

3 minutes ago, ewerk said:

When’s the last time England actually performed well at a tournament before Southgate? 96? Southgate has had you lot putting in credible performances for three tournaments in a row. But for bad refereeing and Harry Kane missing a pen you could be looking at a great chance to win the WC. They’re the fine margins between disappointment and becoming a legend. It was encouraging to see Southgate not revert to a back five yesterday and show some belief in his own side’s quality.

 

It would be very foolish of him to walk now. Despite the solid work he’s done for England there wouldn’t exactly be a number of PL clubs clamouring to appoint him which says a lot about how international football is viewed these days.

 

[Remember lads, ewerk has an ingrained hatred of England, the enemy within if you like, we should do the opposite of everything he says]. 

 

To turn your last point on its head, ask yourself, is there a single club in the PL which would employ Southgate as a manager? And of thise that would, is there any expectation they would be successful?

[Dougle 3395]

The bloke will walk.

But into some plush FA hierarchy well paid bullshit job.

Guaranteed.

[Craig 6700]

After all the hype the media gave Giroud for coming up to equal and then break the French goal scoring record I was surprised there wasn’t a sniff about Kane doing the same for England.

 

Had the 2nd one gone in he’d have the record.

 

Hugely frustrating. We were far the better team, Mbappe was marginalised, the refereeing was diabolical, Pope (or even Ramsdale) would have saved the first goal and I have no idea what Maguire was doing for the 2nd.

 

I also proved to myself that putting a bet on against your team and it paying out doesn’t make you feel any better. 😔

[Howmanheyman 33846]

I watched the match sober as a judge, no way were we far better. We were better in the second half but both sides cancelled each other out really and we were on the front foot a lot more but France scored two great goals from their POV and we were fortunate they gifted us a couple of pens. They edged it attacking wise as they had the extra bit of quality but had Kane equalised who knows how it pans out? It is about small margins and a lot of neutrals would have the winners of this tie going on to win it but again, as has been mentioned, I sometimes think the killer instinct isn't quite there yet with the national side. People say the winning sides find a way but I sometimes think England find a way not win even when they're winning in the big games deep into tournaments. Southgate's done as well as I think he can, he's been around these players for years and early on there was a lack of hype which helped so I wouldn't really call him at all but at the same time you'd be amazed if he ended up at a Liverpool, Man City etc. 

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3974]

Southgate’s substitutions in a losing position are an absolute joke he took good players off and replaced them with the worst possible option 

[Rosco 771]

Things have changed dramatically and I cant see Howe being interested in the England job......they might come asking but I think the answer will be "your having a fucking laugh if you think I'd leave this job for England"

[Isegrim 9905]

2 hours ago, Howmanheyman said:

I watched the match sober as a judge, no way were we far better. We were better in the second half but both sides cancelled each other out really and we were on the front foot a lot more but France scored two great goals from their POV and we were fortunate they gifted us a couple of pens. They edged it attacking wise as they had the extra bit of quality but had Kane equalised who knows how it pans out? It is about small margins and a lot of neutrals would have the winners of this tie going on to win it but again, as has been mentioned, I sometimes think the killer instinct isn't quite there yet with the national side. People say the winning sides find a way but I sometimes think England find a way not win even when they're winning in the big games deep into tournaments. Southgate's done as well as I think he can, he's been around these players for years and early on there was a lack of hype which helped so I wouldn't really call him at all but at the same time you'd be amazed if he ended up at a Liverpool, Man City etc. 

I thought that England did very well in the second half but France were back control of the game again when they scored their second. It was before when England should have pushed for another goal to win the game. Then a court of positive substitutions would really have helped.

[Dougle 3395]

43 minutes ago, Isegrim said:

I thought that England did very well in the second half but France were back control of the game again when they scored their second. It was before when England should have pushed for another goal to win the game. Then a court of positive substitutions would really have helped.

 

Time for a holiday mate?

[Dr Gloom 22151]

4 hours ago, ewerk said:

When’s the last time England actually performed well at a tournament before Southgate? 96? Southgate has had you lot putting in credible performances for three tournaments in a row. But for bad refereeing and Harry Kane missing a pen you could be looking at a great chance to win the WC. They’re the fine margins between disappointment and becoming a legend. It was encouraging to see Southgate not revert to a back five yesterday and show some belief in his own side’s quality.

 

It would be very foolish of him to walk now. Despite the solid work he’s done for England there wouldn’t exactly be a number of PL clubs clamouring to appoint him which says a lot about how international football is viewed these days.

we were a couple of penalty kicks away from winning the euros too. 

[Howay 12496]

8 hours ago, ewerk said:

When’s the last time England actually performed well at a tournament before Southgate? 96? Southgate has had you lot putting in credible performances for three tournaments in a row. But for bad refereeing and Harry Kane missing a pen you could be looking at a great chance to win the WC. They’re the fine margins between disappointment and becoming a legend. It was encouraging to see Southgate not revert to a back five yesterday and show some belief in his own side’s quality.

 

It would be very foolish of him to walk now. Despite the solid work he’s done for England there wouldn’t exactly be a number of PL clubs clamouring to appoint him which says a lot about how international football is viewed these days.

I’ve been largely critical of Southgate throughout his tenure, I think he’s done a good job of building a team rather than a collection of individuals and fostering a “club” type mentality which is something a lot of international sides lack.
 

His failings imo have been tactical, the main one for me was as you highlighted his switching to a back 5 whenever he encountered a tough opponent - he finally didn’t do that and we gave (imo) the best team in international football a game (which I think we edged). He was let down massively by two blokes who he puts faith in and shouldn’t (Pickford and Maguire), which is definitely partially on him as he has other options and should have explored them. This is the first tournament since 2018 where I’ve actually wanted him to continue as the growth we’ve shown was evident to me, we controlled games and comfortably beat sides whereas in prior tournaments we suffocated opponents and didn’t score much, and then as mentioned we went toe to toe with France. I felt he should have been more aggressive with his changes, perhaps Foden into CM for Henderson and then bringing on Grealish/Maddison/Rashford, but at the end of the day as you say this one was very very fine margins. France got a number of lucky drops in the box where the ball was so close to being put in but bobbled to a French defender or was deflected away. 
 

The Italy and Croatia games were carbon copies in that we scored and looked good then sat back and invited pressure, this one showed growth and hopefully it continues.
 

Agree on the last point too as I think squad wise we will be improving so I don’t see this one as our last chance, we have Rice, and Bellingham in CM who are both very young and will mature, players like Harvey Elliott coming through who will take over for possibly more limited CMs like Phillips and Henderson. Foden, Rashford, Saka, Maddison getting more experience along with possibly Sancho recovering form and others coming through. Defensively players like Guehi and Tomori are young and will prove better than Maguire. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Howay

[Blastronaut 1344]

8 hours ago, ewerk said:

When’s the last time England actually performed well at a tournament before Southgate? 96? Southgate has had you lot putting in credible performances for three tournaments in a row. But for bad refereeing and Harry Kane missing a pen you could be looking at a great chance to win the WC. They’re the fine margins between disappointment and becoming a legend. It was encouraging to see Southgate not revert to a back five yesterday and show some belief in his own side’s quality.

 

It would be very foolish of him to walk now. Despite the solid work he’s done for England there wouldn’t exactly be a number of PL clubs clamouring to appoint him which says a lot about how international football is viewed these days.

 

Totally agree.  The attitude that this is all Soutgate's fault and a new manager could do better is baffling to me, this looks like the most united England team of seen in my life and that's surely down the management. On your day you could and should beat anyone with that pool of players, but this is football.

 

The complete lack of humility shown by a majority of the more vocal England fans is mostly the reason rUK revels so much in watching them lose, the assumption that beating France would've been a free pass to the final is amusing too, as if Morocco already eliminating Spain and Germany counts for nothing.

 

[OTF 7492]

12 hours ago, Isegrim said:

I thought that England did very well in the second half but France were back control of the game again when they scored their second. It was before when England should have pushed for another goal to win the game. Then a court of positive substitutions would really have helped.

 

Good summary, first half I gave England the best chance when Saka played in Kane. It was good agressive keeping from Lloris to save that. The Tchouameni goal as we've all mentioned should have been saved. Pickford's positioning wasn't great and he was slow to move and even then could still have got the ball. There was an earlier headed chance for Giroud but the ball was behind him so he couldn't get much on it, but it was the start of a trend of Macguire not being able to defend crosses to Giroud. There was also a deflected shot from Kane from distance thay result in an easy showboating save from Lloris. I give England a marginal advantage on the first half.

 

Other key things to note - there was a text book foul on Saka by Upamecano when France 'won' possession in the lead up to their first goal. There was also a foul on Harry Kane that started outside the box and possibly transitioned just in it that was not given. Horrible refereeing in both cases, and extremely costly to England.

 

Second half England came out hard, there was a cracking volley from Bellingham that forced a good save from Lloris. 5 minutes after that some great interplay a clear foul on Saka in the box wins England a penalty which 2 minutes later Kane scored.

 

Immediately after this an errant throw in results in a shot from distance from Rabiot which Pickford easily saves. It does set the trend for a nervous England period before Harry Macguire sends a very scorable chance wide from a Henderson free-kick. Shortly after Hernandez bails out France just clearing a low driven Luke Shaw cross that Saka was ready to put away.

 

France then wrestle the momentum back with Giroud given perhaps the best chance of the game from a floated Dembele header into the centre of the box after an Mbappe cross. With the goal at his mercy Giroud sent it almost straight at Pickford who saved well. Macguire once again failing to pick up his man.

 

A minute later a superb Griezman cross from the sideline is well met by Giroud, beating Macguire again and at that distance and speed Pickford can't save it.

 

Then was the absolute brain snap from Hernandez to gift England the second penalty after the VAR called the referee over, and we all know what transpired thereafter. Note that there was more than 4 minutes between the foul by Hernandez and Kane taking the penalty.

 

After 6+ minutes alone were lost to the two penalties there were only eight minutes of time added on, which IMO was short of what was due, especially in the context of time added on throughout this tournament. The referee was poor throughout, with the vast majority of that in favour of France.

 

Overall I do give a slight edge to England which would have potentially been realised with a win if Pickford wasn't in goal or if someone who could mark Girout was playing instead of Macguire or if there was a decent referee.

[Dr Gloom 22151]

in the cold light of day, it's disappointing because we played consistently well in this tournament. it was only really against the US that our levels dropped. we've looked dangerous in all the other games. no shame in losing a tight game to the world champions. on another day, with a different ref, we might have nicked it. 

[Toonpack 9952]

Stop it with the ref stuff man! Aye he was poor, but Kane converted a try instead of scoring a penalty, that goes in I could see a French collapse and England win.

 

The ref didn't sky the penalty or nut Maguire's free header wide.

[Dr Gloom 22151]

4 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

Stop it with the ref stuff man! Aye he was poor, but Kane converted a try instead of scoring a penalty, that goes in I could see a French collapse and England win.

 

The ref didn't sky the penalty or nut Maguire's free header wide.

 

they don't score the first goal with another ref who spots the blatant foul on saka. 

[Toonpack 9952]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

they don't score the first goal with another ref who spots the blatant foul on saka. 

 

It's always some Johnny foreigners fault, always without fail.

 

P.S. They don't score the first goal with a keeper who has proper arms.

[PaddockLad 17657]

If France win on Sunday they’d have won three world cups and a European championship since 1998. Brazil, Germany Italy have won one each. Italy have also won a European championship. They’re all multiple World Cup winners. They know how to play tournament football. Croatia appeared on this stage in 1996 as a fully formed tournament football side with only 4 million people to choose from . The Netherlands also have a better record in the last 24 years of reaching finals and semis than England, population 16million 

 

Southgate is teaching English footballers how it’s done. He’s their best chance of them actually doing it regardless of how limited he is. If he leaves am thinking just about any coach remotely qualified to do the job will be a downgrade. He’s had enough of producing then being annhilated for it. England aren’t exceptional, you win fuck all just for being English and that sense of entitlement might be driving the best chance of winning something away. What do you expect from the country who thought Brexit was a good idea though?…

[Dr Gloom 22151]

15 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

 

It's always some Johnny foreigners fault, always without fail.

 

P.S. They don't score the first goal with a keeper who has proper arms.

No, it’s not entirely down to the referee. It rarely is. But he didn’t do us any favours.

 

In a tight game it does come down to fine margins. Massive cliche but true. On another day Maguire’s header is a few inches the other side of the post and Kane converts his penalty. 
 

It’s got fuck all to do with the ref being foreign btw. English refs/VAR are hardly blazing a trail for the rest of the world - on the contrary.

 

But another ref/VAR team doesn’t allow France to break and score their first after the blatant foul on Saka and they blow for the blatant foul on Kane, which could have easily been given as a pen. The contact starts outside the box but continues and scissors him until he falls over inside the box. 
 

And even if you look past those two big talking points, the ref was poor. I’m a fan of officials who try to let the game flow but he went too far in the other direction, frequently failing to blow his whistle. 

[Dr Gloom 22151]

18 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

If France win on Sunday they’d have won three world cups and a European championship since 1998. Brazil, Germany Italy have won one each. Italy have also won a European championship. They’re all multiple World Cup winners. They know how to play tournament football. Croatia appeared on this stage in 1996 as a fully formed tournament football side with only 4 million people to choose from . The Netherlands also have a better record in the last 24 years of reaching finals and semis than England, population 16million 

 

Southgate is teaching English footballers how it’s done. He’s their best chance of them actually doing it regardless of how limited he is. If he leaves am thinking just about any coach remotely qualified to do the job will be a downgrade. He’s had enough of producing then being annhilated for it. England aren’t exceptional, you win fuck all just for being English and that sense of entitlement might be driving the best chance of winning something away. What do you expect from the country who thought Brexit was a good idea though?…

hear hear.
 

The pre-tournament consensus after the draw was made was QF was par. He achieved that and was a whisker away from the SF. 

[Toonpack 9952]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

No, it’s not entirely down to the referee. It rarely is. But he didn’t do us any favours.

 

In a tight game it does come down to fine margins. Massive cliche but true. On another day Maguire’s header is a few inches the other side of the post and Kane converts his penalty. 
 

It’s got fuck all to do with the ref being foreign btw. English refs/VAR are hardly blazing a trail for the rest of the world - on the contrary.

 

But another ref/VAR team doesn’t allow France to break and score their first after the blatant foul on Saka and they blow for the blatant foul on Kane, which could have easily been given as a pen. The contact starts outside the box but continues and scissors him until he falls over inside the box. 
 

And even if you look past those two big talking points, the ref was poor. I’m a fan of officials who try to let the game flow but he went too far in the other direction, frequently failing to blow his whistle. 

 

Fair enough, elsewhere though it's all the ref (or Southgate), no mention of the missed pen or header.

 

Ref's are generally shit, mainly because the players give them absolutely no chance with all the "there was a zephyr of wind knocked me over bollocks" and the latest thing, the trailing leg left dangling.