The new manager thread

[Alan Doh'liver 219]

1 hour ago, Clarko said:

Wow... I never said that he was or he wasn't suitable for a Howe and that wasn't the argument... 

 

 

Did you bother to look at the thread title before replying I wonder? 

 

[MrLogic 16]

8 minutes ago, Kitman said:

It’s still just your opinion, not fact. And arguing over whether the players are shite or just average is pretty pointless, given the club’s aim is to bring in better players.

They if you disagree with my argument you're more than free to challenge it with your own reasoning, statistics and facts and we'll see how it stacks up. If not, we'll assume my argument is/was justified and well informed. And again, you're more than free to think debating football matters is pointless, just the same way someone could think that what you did was pointless. 

[MrLogic 16]

Just now, Alan Doh'liver said:

Did you bother to look at the thread title before replying I wonder? 

 

Yes and then I read your comment, that had absolutely no mention of Eddie Howe and instead talked about how the squad had been run down and that players like Shelvey and Gayle who are 'shot', should not have been given new contracts. Again, that's what I disagreed with. I feel like I've said this before... Seriously, go back and read your comment, the one I responded to. This is becoming incredibly tedious.

[Monkeys Fist 43063]

 

6 minutes ago, Clarko said:

This is becoming incredibly tedious.

Yes it is. 
 

You signed up here in 2016, made your first post tonight, and have gone full energy-vampire. 
 

Give me one good, well-argued, backed by statistics reason why I shouldn’t hit the “Flag as a Spammer” button and fuck you off to the  crèche, you absolute bore. 

[Howmanheyman 33828]

"I think you'll find, Reeves, that I did indeed check his stats on statDNA, Qlikview and if I may be so bold, would refer you to Wyscout to further enhance my argument. It's just a quest......oh hang on, just need to answer this..... Hello? Who? Ah Fish, how you doing my fine fendered friend? What? Newcastle natter this Thursday? Love to. See you then!"

[Dougle 3384]

[Kitman 2207]

32 minutes ago, Clarko said:

They if you disagree with my argument you're more than free to challenge it with your own reasoning, statistics and facts and we'll see how it stacks up. If not, we'll assume my argument is/was justified and well informed. And again, you're more than free to think debating football matters is pointless, just the same way someone could think that what you did was pointless. 

Or I could just ignore you. Yep, I think I’ll do that.

[PaddockLad 17643]

Odds on Clarko having outstayed his welcome on another forum?  

[Monkeys Fist 43063]

1 hour ago, PaddockLad said:

Odds on Clarko having outstayed his welcome on another forum?  

They’re pretty patient on Ready to Groom tbf. 

[acrossthepond 878]

Ashley apologist with a twist, he's a boring as fuck divvy who distorts stats to support his point. Even from the worst Ashley hoop-lickers you rarely hear that Benitez "got the club relegated," that's a fucking new one.

Here then you impostor, how about comparing apples to apples? Bruce wasn't at NUFC for 3 years as you state, he was here from 17 July 2019 to 20 October 2021, that's 2 years and three months you throbber, which you're comparing to nearly 3.5 years of Benitez's tenure. Bruce racked up 110m of dogshit signings, nearly 10m per player, spearheaded by the biggest fucking plum to play for us in recent memory, a player who Benitez told the club not to sign, whereas Benitez had a larger total spend (over substantially longer, as well as overseeing a Championship rebuild) but a far, far smaller net spend. A net spend that was actually negative, in fact. I notice you mysteriously didn't mention that when you were trying to quibble over how much money Rafa was given. 

Bruce had a staggering net spend of 93m during his time here. Rafa? -11m. You've heard the one about lies, damned lies, and statistics, right? 

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

HaVe nOnE oF yOuSe WaTcHeD mOnEyBaLL?

[wykikitoon 20712]

5 hours ago, Monkeys Fist said:

They’re pretty patient on Ready to Groom tbf. 

Ready to Groom

 

[Rayvin 5295]

Well this has been special

 

The two standout moments I can remember for Shelvey for this season are being subbed on against Spurs and being sent off again within 10 minutes for two separate bookings, and floating a harmless free kick into the box for an easy opposition clear instead of shooting against a team that had an outfield player in net with 1 minute left to play in a game we needed to win.

 

Clearly a player of absolute quality. "We played him so he must be good". FFS. We hired Bruce and kept him for 2 seasons man. And he was anything but good.

[Asprilla 96]

12 hours ago, Clarko said:

Yes and then I read your comment, that had absolutely no mention of Eddie Howe and instead talked about how the squad had been run down and that players like Shelvey and Gayle who are 'shot', should not have been given new contracts. Again, that's what I disagreed with. I feel like I've said this before... Seriously, go back and read your comment, the one I responded to. This is becoming incredibly tedious.

Tbf this place has a long history of tarring and feathering anyone who doesn’t agree with the consensus of this forum! 😁

 

I thought you made some fair points fwiw

[The Fish 10963]

14 hours ago, strawb said:

Is this bloke off your podcast Fish? 

 

This kind of nonsense wouldn't fly on our podcast.

 

Shelvey being in the sides of McClaren, Benitez (Champ) and Bruce does not mean he's good. 

 

We've had better centre mids than him, Merino for a fucking start. Hayden in his role, Longstaff at times. Shelvey has been detrimental to the way we could play, but Bruce was not about to drop the guy that can ping a 60yd ball to the isolated striker, was he? 

 

To say Shelvey is anything but a liability is to ignore his propensity for dropping deeper and deeper searching for a pocket of space from which to launch his Hollywood balls unmolested. It's to ignore his propensity for picking up stupid cards for rash and reckless fouls. It's to ignore his diminishing returns from set pieces. This Clarko is ignoring everything but his place as a mainstay in Bruce's teamsheet. And when you remember Joelinton was picked every fucking week, that doesn't exactly suggest that's a good measure of ability.

 

Shelvey should have been peddled long ago. S.Longstaff could have been put in as a midfield partner for Hayden which would have allowed a modern energetic style of play. Gayle's goals could have been made up in the aggregate, or found in Armstrong or Toney. 

[ewerk 31195]

9 minutes ago, The Fish said:

And when you remember Joelinton was picked every fucking week, that doesn't exactly suggest that's a good measure of ability.

 

Joelinton has made 30% more appearances for Newcastle since he's been here so he must be 30% better than Shelvey.

[Monkeys Fist 43063]

31 minutes ago, Asprilla said:

Tbf this place has a long history of tarring and feathering anyone who doesn’t agree with the consensus of this forum! 😁

[The Fish 10963]

Shelvey is fundamentally not our best midfielder. Had we played with defenders like Schar and Lejeune who can pass the ball a bit, plus midfielders like S.Longstaff, we'd not miss the range of passing that Shelvey is perceived to possess. It'd be made up in the aggregate. But we'd also get the energy, discipline and mobility that he lacks. 

 

I don't get Clarko's point? These players who are past their limited best are not further evidence of the neglect of the club? 

[Rayvin 5295]

40 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

Joelinton has made 30% more appearances for Newcastle since he's been here so he must be 30% better than Shelvey.

 

50 minutes ago, The Fish said:

And when you remember Joelinton was picked every fucking week, that doesn't exactly suggest that's a good measure of ability.

 

 

These points right here are really the end of the argument IMO. How does the "playtime = ability" argument deal with Joelinton?

Edited November 18, 2021 by Rayvin

[Tom 14013]

14 hours ago, Monkeys Fist said:

 

Yes it is. 
 

You signed up here in 2016, made your first post tonight, and have gone full energy-vampire. 
 

Give me one good, well-argued, backed by statistics reason why I shouldn’t hit the “Flag as a Spammer” button and fuck you off to the  crèche, you absolute bore. 

Easy tiger  

 

I know we’re shocked by actual football chat that isn’t Diego or Fish but we’ll give the lad a break. 
 

If you need me I’ll be in the guitar thread looking at chairs. 

[Meenzer 15716]

Do you even ChyronHego bro?

[Alan Doh'liver 219]

11 hours ago, acrossthepond said:

Ashley apologist with a twist, he's a boring as fuck divvy who distorts stats to support his point. Even from the worst Ashley hoop-lickers you rarely hear that Benitez "got the club relegated," that's a fucking new one.

Here then you impostor, how about comparing apples to apples? Bruce wasn't at NUFC for 3 years as you state, he was here from 17 July 2019 to 20 October 2021, that's 2 years and three months you throbber, which you're comparing to nearly 3.5 years of Benitez's tenure. Bruce racked up 110m of dogshit signings, nearly 10m per player, spearheaded by the biggest fucking plum to play for us in recent memory, a player who Benitez told the club not to sign, whereas Benitez had a larger total spend (over substantially longer, as well as overseeing a Championship rebuild) but a far, far smaller net spend. A net spend that was actually negative, in fact. I notice you mysteriously didn't mention that when you were trying to quibble over how much money Rafa was given. 

Bruce had a staggering net spend of 93m during his time here. Rafa? -11m. You've heard the one about lies, damned lies, and statistics, right? 

Bruce also rode a season and a half on Rafa's coaching of the defence. It got progressively worse the longer Bruce was in charge. I'm sure there'll be a statistic somewhere to back that up. 

[MrLogic 16]

12 hours ago, acrossthepond said:

Ashley apologist with a twist, he's a boring as fuck divvy who distorts stats to support his point. Even from the worst Ashley hoop-lickers you rarely hear that Benitez "got the club relegated," that's a fucking new one.

Here then you impostor, how about comparing apples to apples? Bruce wasn't at NUFC for 3 years as you state, he was here from 17 July 2019 to 20 October 2021, that's 2 years and three months you throbber, which you're comparing to nearly 3.5 years of Benitez's tenure. Bruce racked up 110m of dogshit signings, nearly 10m per player, spearheaded by the biggest fucking plum to play for us in recent memory, a player who Benitez told the club not to sign, whereas Benitez had a larger total spend (over substantially longer, as well as overseeing a Championship rebuild) but a far, far smaller net spend. A net spend that was actually negative, in fact. I notice you mysteriously didn't mention that when you were trying to quibble over how much money Rafa was given. 

Bruce had a staggering net spend of 93m during his time here. Rafa? -11m. You've heard the one about lies, damned lies, and statistics, right? 

I have not distorted any statistics to support my points… I’ve just used statistics to support my points, if you disagree with my point, you’re free to provide your own statistics/reasoning/evidence that you feel counters my argument, but that’s on you to provide not me. That’s how debates work.

 

Sure… Bruce wasn’t the manager of Newcastle for three years, he was there for ~2 years and 3 months, Benitez was the manager of Newcastle for ~3 years, 3 months and 19 days… You got me… That’s my whole argument, just destroyed!

 

For someone who was really concerned about the accuracy of Bruce’s tenure (not as accurate with Benitez funnily enough), the rest of your argument is bare and lacks any detail, you state that Bruce spent the entirety of ~£127.17m given to him on, let’s say paraphrase and say “poor” players, really? Wilson and Saint-Maximin? I would argue that those players are head and shoulders above anyone that Benitez managed to bring to the club and as you point out, he was here ‘substantially longer’ apparently… You think Willock is poor? Lewis? Fraser? I believe they have just been poorly managed/utilised by Bruce. Why do you think they are poor?

 

As for your attack on Joelinton I presume, again I’d (potentially) point to the quality of the coaching by Bruce, the point I do want to make is regarding Benitez advising the club ‘not to sign’ him, Benitez actually advised the club and refused to sign off on the deal because he thought the player was worth ‘£20m’ and not the ’£40m’ we ended up paying (per Mike Ashley), I feel people tend to forget that Benitez didn’t want Saint-Maximin either (per Luke Edwards), but you don’t want him either right? Because he’s not very good?

 

Benitez did have a significantly lower net spend than Bruce, that’s to be expected when the club is relegated and ~£100m of TV revenue disappears, something Benitez was hired to prevent, but failed (something that fans are really touchy about). Nevertheless Benitez did spent ~£153.46m on players, that happened, he was allowed to spend that in ~6 transfer windows compared to the ~£127.17m in ~5 transfer windows that Bruce had.

[MrLogic 16]

3 hours ago, The Fish said:

 

This kind of nonsense wouldn't fly on our podcast.

 

Shelvey being in the sides of McClaren, Benitez (Champ) and Bruce does not mean he's good. 

 

We've had better centre mids than him, Merino for a fucking start. Hayden in his role, Longstaff at times. Shelvey has been detrimental to the way we could play, but Bruce was not about to drop the guy that can ping a 60yd ball to the isolated striker, was he? 

 

To say Shelvey is anything but a liability is to ignore his propensity for dropping deeper and deeper searching for a pocket of space from which to launch his Hollywood balls unmolested. It's to ignore his propensity for picking up stupid cards for rash and reckless fouls. It's to ignore his diminishing returns from set pieces. This Clarko is ignoring everything but his place as a mainstay in Bruce's teamsheet. And when you remember Joelinton was picked every fucking week, that doesn't exactly suggest that's a good measure of ability.

 

Shelvey should have been peddled long ago. S.Longstaff could have been put in as a midfield partner for Hayden which would have allowed a modern energetic style of play. Gayle's goals could have been made up in the aggregate, or found in Armstrong or Toney. 

I never said that Shelvey was good just because he’s played in the sides managed by McClaren, Benitez and Bruce, what I said was:

 

‘You can make criticisms of Shelvey but the fact of the matter is he is our best central midfielder and has been since his arrival in January 2016, he has made 176 appearances for the club, starting for three different coaches (potentially four now) and has outlasted and outperformed the likes of Diame, Colback, Saivet, Barlaser, Anita, Merino, Ki, M.Longstaff, S.Longstaff, Bentaleb, Willock, Hendrick and so on... He was given a contract because he was too valuable to the squad to let go of.’

 

You say we’ve had better midfielders and go on to list Merino without giving any reasoning/evidence as to why/how? Merino played 1424 minutes for Newcastle, that’s less than 16 games and you’re claiming that what I said (above) about Shelvey outlasting and outperforming his peers is ‘nonsense’? And Longstaff has been a better CM ‘at times’, how many times exactly?

 

You then go on and make a complaint about how deep Shelvey plays… Surely that’s a criticism for the management, if the manager wants Shelvey to play higher, then instruct him to play higher, that is not a valid attack on Shelvey’s ability. As for the ‘reckless fouls’ and picking up ‘stupid cards’ comment, let’s compare Hayden (who listed above) and Shelvey:

 

• Hayden has received 35 yellow cards and 2 red cards in 167 appearances (11,955 minutes)
• Shelvey has received 31 yellow cards, 2 second yellow cards and 2 red cards in 176 appearances (13,513 minutes)

 

The difference, which ever way you perceive who has a better disciplinary record, is negligible.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Clarko

[MrLogic 16]

16 hours ago, sammynb said:

Shelvey and Gayle are both nowhere near good enough, Rafa knew and was happy for them to be nowhere near the team. To argue otherwise is just a sad attempt at wummery.

As for the arguement about Rafa spending more and getting the team relegated, well it’s laughable and could only come from someone who isn’t a supporter but quite possibly is Luke Edwards, ie. a clueless cunt. 

Shelvey made 104 appearances for Benitez… Gayle was signed by Benitez and again made 74 appearances for him… Benitez did spend more than Bruce and was in charge when the team was relegated... Those are facts...