The new manager thread

[wykikitoon 19980]

2 minutes ago, Alan Doh'liver said:

I read that article, and tbh you don't really need statistics to see how Ashley had basically run the squad down in the last few years, although he was hardly doing a stellar job before that either. I think giving new contracts to players who were clearly shot, such as Gayle and Shelvey, was just about keeping the club going until it was sold, then the squad was someone else's problem. 

I suppose PIF probably negotiated the price down accordingly, I read the club was sold for around £305m eventually, pretty sure it was priced at £350m originally. 

In any case, agree it will cost a shitload to inflate the value of that squad, probably why PIF are the only buyers who would touch us. 

Gayle man.

Why did they give him and a new contract?  Also it shows what a fucking lazy cunt he must be to take the cash to finger his arsehole all week.

[ewerk 30370]

6 minutes ago, wykikitoon said:

But Vardy will have players around him that help him out.  BUJ7 has the likes of Ritchie, Shelvey etc. Coupled with that we have had Brewcie. 

You’re right. Put BU7 in that Leicester side and he’d bang in 20 goals a season no probs.

Edited November 17, 2021 by ewerk

[Alan Doh'liver 219]

47 minutes ago, wykikitoon said:

But Vardy will have players around him that help him out.  BUJ7 has the likes of Ritchie, Shelvey etc. Coupled with that we have had Brewcie. 

Wouldn't be surprised if Ritchie makes a bit of a comeback under Howe tbh. We've been using him as a wing back and he hasn't really got the legs to cover that much ground, but if we push up the pitch then I could see Ritchie becoming a lot more effective in the final third. I've always thought he's got a good delivery, and he can press if it's just in the final third. 

Shelvey on the other hand....

[Kid Dynamite 7009]

1 hour ago, wykikitoon said:

But Vardy will have players around him that help him out.  BUJ7 has the likes of Ritchie, Shelvey etc. Coupled with that we have had Brewcie. 

But that's to do with their ability rather than their age. Which is a more important variable imo 

[MrLogic 16]

1 hour ago, Alan Doh'liver said:

I read that article, and tbh you don't really need statistics to see how Ashley had basically run the squad down in the last few years, although he was hardly doing a stellar job before that either. I think giving new contracts to players who were clearly shot, such as Gayle and Shelvey, was just about keeping the club going until it was sold, then the squad was someone else's problem. 

I suppose PIF probably negotiated the price down accordingly, I read the club was sold for around £305m eventually, pretty sure it was priced at £350m originally. 

In any case, agree it will cost a shitload to inflate the value of that squad, probably why PIF are the only buyers who would touch us. 

In the last three years, since the appointment of Bruce, Newcastle/Ashley has had a net spend of ~£94.66m (and more importantly an actual spend of ~£127.17m) and that's excluding the arrival of any free agents (Fraser, Hendrick and Carroll), that's hardly 'run down' right? You can make criticisms of Shelvey but the fact of the matter is he is our best central midfielder and has been since his arrival in January 2016, he has made 176 appearances for the club, starting for three different coaches (potentially four now) and has outlasted and outperformed the likes of Diame, Colback, Saivet, Barlaser, Anita, Merino, Ki, M.Longstaff, S.Longstaff, Bentaleb, Willock, Hendrick and so on... He was given a contract because he was too valuable to the squad to let go of. As for Gayle, he is seemingly content with sitting on the bench and with a goal contribution (goals and assists) every 184 minutes in the Premier League, he's useful, for context Wilson has a goal contribution every 157 minutes in the Premier League. I don't believe our squad is poor, I believe it's just been poorly coached/managed for the past seven or so years, it wouldn't take much (coaching and/or money) to improve.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Clarko

[Kid Dynamite 7009]

Hi Dwight 

[acrossthepond 874]

Shelvey has been a liability for ages now, you must be having a laugh. Our best central midfielder? Outperformed the likes of Colback, Saivet, Barlaser, and Bentaleb? What an accomplishment, the latter 3 probably had 500 minutes of pitch time between them and being better than Colback isn't exactly a glowing endorsement. As for mentioning Willock in that list, we'd have gone down last season if not for his performances, it's actually comical to state that Shelvey outperformed him by any metric other than the number of 50-yard passes he put out of play, or the number of Cruciatus curses he laid on people. 

The squad absolutely has been run down during Bruce's tenure. We splashed a lot of money on a small handful of players upon whom we then over-relied, allowing strength in depth to decline massively. Ritchie is almost ready for a trip to the glue factory as he's been so overused over the past few years. Beyond the first XI we look incredibly threadbare, with players like Hayden, Hendrick, Gayle, Krafth and Manquillo regularly getting games when they should be playing for Championship sides. Carroll had an embarrassing cameo for us and then even more ludicrously was given another year. Murphy had a revival but is contracted until 2027 (!), that should tell you everything you need to know about the way Ashley was simply running out the clock on the last few years. 

We did better with a worse squad under Benitez, who was given - as you pointed out yourself - far less money to work with. So whistle with your "poor coaching over the last 7 years." 

[Monkeys Fist 42129]

3 minutes ago, acrossthepond said:

or the number of Cruciatus curses he laid on people. 

[Alan Doh'liver 219]

38 minutes ago, Clarko said:

In the last three years, since the appointment of Bruce, Newcastle/Ashley has had a net spend of ~£94.66m (and more importantly an actual spend of ~£127.17m) and that's excluding the arrival of any free agents (Fraser, Hendrick and Carroll), that's hardly 'run down' right? You can make criticisms of Shelvey but the fact of the matter is he is our best central midfielder and has been since his arrival in January 2016, he has made 176 appearances for the club, starting for three different coaches (potentially four now) and has outlasted and outperformed the likes of Diame, Colback, Saivet, Barlaser, Anita, Merino, Ki, M.Longstaff, S.Longstaff, Bentaleb, Willock, Hendrick and so on... He was given a contract because he was too valuable to the squad to let go of. As for Gayle, he is seemingly content with sitting on the bench and with a goal contribution (goals and assists) every 184 minutes in the Premier League, he's useful, for context Wilson has a goal contribution every 157 minutes in the Premier League. I don't believe our squad is poor, I believe it's just been poorly coached/managed for the past seven or so years, it wouldn't take much (coaching and/or money) to improve.

Outperformed in what way? I have always maintained that Shelvey is ability-wise our best midfielder, but that's only if the opposition plays at walking pace. It's all well and good having a silky touch and a nice long range pass, but if your opponents are running rings round you for the majority of the game that's next to useless. For me Diame was far more useful in the modern era. 

If Howe intends us to play a pressing high tempo game, then I just don't see how Shelvey fits in without suddenly changing the habits of a lifetime. See video of him gasping with his hands on his knees in a Swansea shirt. 

[Sonatine 11329]

22 minutes ago, acrossthepond said:

or the number of Cruciatus curses he laid on people. 

 

 

He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named.

 

In the starting eleven.

 

 

[MrLogic 16]

3 minutes ago, acrossthepond said:

Shelvey has been a liability for ages now, you must be having a laugh. Our best central midfielder? Outperformed the likes of Colback, Saivet, Barlaser, and Bentaleb? What an accomplishment, the latter 3 probably had 500 minutes of pitch time between them and being better than Colback isn't exactly a glowing endorsement. As for mentioning Willock in that list, we'd have gone down last season if not for his performances, it's actually comical to state that Shelvey outperformed him by any metric other than the number of 50-yard passes he put out of play, or the number of Cruciatus curses he laid on people. 

The squad absolutely has been run down during Bruce's tenure. We splashed a lot of money on a small handful of players upon whom we then over-relied, allowing strength in depth to decline massively. Ritchie is almost ready for a trip to the glue factory as he's been so overused over the past few years. Beyond the first XI we look incredibly threadbare, with players like Hayden, Hendrick, Gayle, Krafth and Manquillo regularly getting games when they should be playing for Championship sides. Carroll had an embarrassing cameo for us and then even more ludicrously was given another year. Murphy had a revival but is contracted until 2027 (!), that should tell you everything you need to know about the way Ashley was simply running out the clock on the last few years. 

We did better with a worse squad under Benitez, who was given - as you pointed out yourself - far less money to work with. So whistle with your "poor coaching over the last 7 years." 

You can criticise Shelvey all you want but you can't name a player who has been able to displace him from the starting XI, which he has been apart for ~6 years... He has outperformed those players you mentioned and the ones who you ignored (Diame, Merino, Longstaff...), and yes I think it's quite an accomplishment. Your comment regarding playtime is not only silly (my argument was that he was able to keep those players out of the team) but incorrect, Bentaleb alone played 1021 minutes for Newcastle.

 

As for Willock, his goals were absolutley vital in keeping the club up last season but how many games/minutes did he play? He played less than Bentaleb, he played 979 minutes of football and starting in 11 games, how many/much has he played this season? 605 minutes, with no goals or assists.

 

Pretty much nothing what you said about the squad is true, you can't just say that the club has 'splashed a lot of money', which is contradictory to your claim that the squad has been 'run down', on a 'small handful of players' without providing actual evidence and expect it to be accepted. The club has spent ~£127.15m on the likes of Joelinton, Saint-Maximin, Wilson, Lewis, Fraser, Hendrick, Krafth, Willock and Carroll, that's not a 'small handful' of 'Championship' players. As for the comment that lists players that should be in the Championship, again why? You can't make statements like that without reason... Hendrick is an established Premier League player and has made 146 appearances over the last 6 years, Manquillo has played for Atletico Madrid, Liverpool, Marseille, Newcastle and Sunderland, Hayden (like Shelvey) has been a mainstay in our team since his arrival from Arsenal...

 

I never said that Benitez 'had far less money to work with'... Actually Benitez had a total spend greater than Bruce, despite getting the club relegated, Benitez spent a total of ~£153.46m during his time at the club. And yes I will 'whistle' my view that the club has been poorly coached over the last ~7 years because I believe it has.

[MrLogic 16]

27 minutes ago, Alan Doh'liver said:

Outperformed in what way? I have always maintained that Shelvey is ability-wise our best midfielder, but that's only if the opposition plays at walking pace. It's all well and good having a silky touch and a nice long range pass, but if your opponents are running rings round you for the majority of the game that's next to useless. For me Diame was far more useful in the modern era. 

If Howe intends us to play a pressing high tempo game, then I just don't see how Shelvey fits in without suddenly changing the habits of a lifetime. See video of him gasping with his hands on his knees in a Swansea shirt. 

Outperformed meaning (without diving in to specific statistics of every CM we've had over the last 6 years) that he has kept his place in the team, under three different managers and as you say he is our best midfielder based on ability (your words). We'll see what happens under Howe but you can't criticise the club for keeping hold of a vital squad member. 

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Less than £100m over 3 seasons to improve an already dire squad in a modern market where average players cost upwards of £30m. Go pour another vodka blue pop.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

3 minutes ago, Clarko said:

Outperformed meaning (without diving in to specific statistics of every CM we've had over the last 6 years) that he has kept his place in the team, under three different managers and as you say he is our best midfielder based on ability (your words). We'll see what happens under Howe but you can't criticise the club for keeping hold of a vital squad member. 

Vital the club hasn't exactly been performing. It's been in a fucking dog scrap or the Championship for the majority of the time Shelvey has been here. That's largely in part because players like Shelvey are here.

[Monkeys Fist 42129]

1 hour ago, Clarko said:

Outperformed meaning (without diving in to specific statistics of every CM we've had over the last 6 years) that he has kept his place in the team, under three different managers and as you say he is our best midfielder based on ability (your words). We'll see what happens under Howe but you can't criticise the club for keeping hold of a vital squad member. 

I’ve got a 15 year old car that’s kept it’s place in my garage. 
 

It’s rusty as fuck, performs like a duck swimming through custard, and, even though I’d like nothing more than to burn the fucking thing, it’s vital that I keep it on the road. 
 

It’s only in my garage because the funding to buy a Maserati isn’t there. 
 

If I won the lottery though…

[MrLogic 16]

1 hour ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

Less than £100m over 3 seasons to improve an already dire squad in a modern market where average players cost upwards of £30m. Go pour another vodka blue pop.

 

1 hour ago, TheGingerQuiff said:

Vital the club hasn't exactly been performing. It's been in a fucking dog scrap or the Championship for the majority of the time Shelvey has been here. That's largely in part because players like Shelvey are here.

 

Bruce spent ~£127.17m in three seasons, Benitez spent ~£153.46m in the three seasons before Bruce was appointed. Saying it's a 'dire squad' and saying that 'average players cost upwards of £30m' just isn't true... Is Allan Saint-Maximin less than an average player? He cost ~£16.20m. What about Demarai Gray? He must be awful if he only cost ~£1.70m. Valentino Livramento at ~£5.31m? Can't be a good player. Cristiano Ronaldo? ~£13.50m? Terrible. Price does not equal quality. Incredibly, uninformed, silly argument.

 

Yeah the players are bad because you say they are right? Okay...

[MrLogic 16]

25 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

I’ve got a 15 year old car that’s kept it’s place in my garage. 
 

It’s rusty as fuck, performs like a duck swimming through custard, and, even though I’d like nothing more than to burn the fucking thing, it’s vital that I keep it on the road. 
 

It’s only in my garage because the funding to buy a Maserati isn’t there. 
 

If I won the lottery though…

It's a good job that has absolutley nothing to do with what I'm talking about then. I'm talking about Newcastle, you're more than free to join in.

[Alan Doh'liver 219]

1 hour ago, Clarko said:

Outperformed meaning (without diving in to specific statistics of every CM we've had over the last 6 years) that he has kept his place in the team, under three different managers and as you say he is our best midfielder based on ability (your words). We'll see what happens under Howe but you can't criticise the club for keeping hold of a vital squad member. 

Of course you ignored the very specific reasons I gave why he's not suitable for a Howe side ( can't run, can't press, no stamina etc) and replied with "but he's kept his side ahead of all others! That must mean he's better!"

Mate just have a look at how Bournemouth used to play under Howe and tell me where Jonjo is going to fit in. I'm not sure Howe will go for a 5 man defence with Shelvey playing sweeper, and still manage a high press attacking formation. 

[strawb 4188]

Is this bloke off your podcast Fish? 

[Monkeys Fist 42129]

He’s got his own- Onanists Online. 

[Howmanheyman 32826]

5 minutes ago, Clarko said:

It's a good job that has absolutley nothing to do with what I'm talking about then. I'm talking about Newcastle, you're more than free to join in.

Aye, MF. JOIN IN or just shut the fuck up! Ok? 

[MrLogic 16]

1 minute ago, Alan Doh'liver said:

Of course you ignored the very specific reasons I gave why he's not suitable for a Howe side ( can't run, can't press, no stamina etc) and replied with "but he's kept his side ahead of all others! That must mean he's better!"

Mate just have a look at how Bournemouth used to play under Howe and tell me where Jonjo is going to fit in. I'm not sure Howe will go for a 5 man defence with Shelvey playing sweeper, and still manage a high press attacking formation. 

Wow... I never said that he was or he wasn't suitable for a Howe and that wasn't the argument... Go back to your comment, the one I took issue with, your comment argued that the squad had been run down and that players like Shelvey and Gayle who are 'shot', should not have been given new contracts. That's what  I disagreed with. On a side note, you said, not me, that Shelvey was the best midfielder we had 'ability-wise'.

 

 

[Kid Dynamite 7009]

Are we ignoring the multiple periods when Shelvey couldn't get in the side btw?  
 

In the last 2 seasons he didn't play in 34 of our premier league games!

[Monkeys Fist 42129]

Just now, Howmanheyman said:

Aye, MF. JOIN IN or just shut the fuck up! Ok? 

 

I would if he had a point beyond “ I think Voldemort is our bestest midfielder, here’s a snoozefest of numbers to prove I’m right”. 
 

Anyway, how’s the market looking in Torino? 

 

Bada-boom Bada-bing

[Howmanheyman 32826]

Just now, Monkeys Fist said:

 

I would if he had a point beyond “ I think Voldemort is our bestest midfielder, here’s a snoozefest of numbers to prove I’m right”. 
 

Anyway, how’s the market looking in Torino? 

 

Bada-boom Bada-bing

I'd have their CF.