The new manager thread

[wykikitoon 19986]

Gayle was signed for the Championship. The Championship is his level.

[Kid Dynamite 7011]

TLDR x2

[Sonatine 11329]

14 minutes ago, Clarko said:

 

‘You can make criticisms of Shelvey but the fact of the matter is he is our best central midfielder and has been since his arrival in January 2016

 

[MrLogic 16]

3 minutes ago, wykikitoon said:

Gayle was signed for the Championship. The Championship is his level.

Well he's made 140 appearances in the Premier League (35 of those coming from Benitez), he's played 6063 minutes of Premier League football and has scored 26 goals and made 7 assists, that's a goal contribution every 184 minutes. Which, I think, is an impressive record.

[ewerk 30385]

[Gemmill 44539]

You've expended more energy in support of Shelvey than he's ever expended on the pitch. 

[Meenzer 15449]

[Alex 34938]

26 minutes ago, Clarko said:

Well he's made 140 appearances in the Premier League (35 of those coming from Benitez), he's played 6063 minutes of Premier League football and has scored 26 goals and made 7 assists, that's a goal contribution every 184 minutes. Which, I think, is an impressive record.

I tell you what like, you’ve got an uncanny knack when it comes to timing. Because the above and everything else you’ve been on about is exactly what is in the thoughts of almost every Newcastle fan atm 

[Dr Gloom 21861]

51 minutes ago, Clarko said:

I have not distorted any statistics to support my points… I’ve just used statistics to support my points, if you disagree with my point, you’re free to provide your own statistics/reasoning/evidence that you feel counters my argument, but that’s on you to provide not me. That’s how debates work.

 

Sure… Bruce wasn’t the manager of Newcastle for three years, he was there for ~2 years and 3 months, Benitez was the manager of Newcastle for ~3 years, 3 months and 19 days… You got me… That’s my whole argument, just destroyed!

 

For someone who was really concerned about the accuracy of Bruce’s tenure (not as accurate with Benitez funnily enough), the rest of your argument is bare and lacks any detail, you state that Bruce spent the entirety of ~£127.17m given to him on, let’s say paraphrase and say “poor” players, really? Wilson and Saint-Maximin? I would argue that those players are head and shoulders above anyone that Benitez managed to bring to the club and as you point out, he was here ‘substantially longer’ apparently… You think Willock is poor? Lewis? Fraser? I believe they have just been poorly managed/utilised by Bruce. Why do you think they are poor?

 

As for your attack on Joelinton I presume, again I’d (potentially) point to the quality of the coaching by Bruce, the point I do want to make is regarding Benitez advising the club ‘not to sign’ him, Benitez actually advised the club and refused to sign off on the deal because he thought the player was worth ‘£20m’ and not the ’£40m’ we ended up paying (per Mike Ashley), I feel people tend to forget that Benitez didn’t want Saint-Maximin either (per Luke Edwards), but you don’t want him either right? Because he’s not very good?

 

Benitez did have a significantly lower net spend than Bruce, that’s to be expected when the club is relegated and ~£100m of TV revenue disappears, something Benitez was hired to prevent, but failed (something that fans are really touchy about). Nevertheless Benitez did spent ~£153.46m on players, that happened, he was allowed to spend that in ~6 transfer windows compared to the ~£127.17m in ~5 transfer windows that Bruce had.

who the fuck is this cunt?

[The Fish 10793]

Just now, Clarko said:

I never said that Shelvey was good just because he’s played in the sides managed by McClaren, Benitez and Bruce, what I said was:

 

‘You can make criticisms of Shelvey but the fact of the matter is he is our best central midfielder and has been since his arrival in January 2016, he has made 176 appearances for the club, starting for three different coaches (potentially four now) and has outlasted and outperformed the likes of Diame, Colback, Saivet, Barlaser, Anita, Merino, Ki, M.Longstaff, S.Longstaff, Bentaleb, Willock, Hendrick and so on... He was given a contract because he was too valuable to the squad to let go of.’

 

You say we’ve had better midfielders and go on to list Merino without giving any reasoning/evidence as to why/how and Longstaff, who you say has been better ‘at times’… Merino played 1424 minutes for Newcastle, that’s less than 16 games and you’re claiming that what I said (above) about Shelvey outlasting and outperforming his peers is ‘nonsense’? And Longstaff has been a better CM ‘at times’, how many times?

 

You then go on and make a complaint about how deep Shelvey plays… Surely that’s a criticism for the management, if the manager wants Shelvey to play higher, then instruct him to play higher, that is not a valid attack on Shelvey’s ability. As for the ‘reckless fouls’ and picking up ‘stupid cards’ comment, let’s compare Hayden (who listed above) and Shelvey:

 

• Hayden has received 35 yellow cards and 2 red cards in 167 appearances (11,955 minutes)
• Shelvey has received 31 yellow cards, 2 second yellow cards and 2 red cards in 176 appearances (13,513 minutes)

 

The difference, which ever way you perceive who has a better disciplinary record, is negligible.

 

 

Ok, a few sweetcorns to pick out of that pile of shit;

'Outlasting' other players during the tenure of Mike Ashley is no sign of quality. Henri Saivet was at the club for how long? Emmanuel Riviere joine in 2014, left in 2017. Demba Ba joined in the June of 2011 and left in the January of 2013. Riviere outlasted Ba. Who'd you rather have stayed at the club?

 

'Out performing'? By what measure?

Goals? 16 in 7yr, only 9 in the Prem. (~0.1 GpG)

Assists? 24 in 7yr, 12 in the Prem (~ 0.13 ApG) 

Anecdotally? Mythologically?

 

Is that good enough for the chief creator of a team that's aiming to finish midtable of the Premier League?

I mean, Cabaye was only here for 2 1/2 seasons and scored more goals and had more assists than Voldemort has managed.

 

Of course dropping deep a valid attack on Shelvey's ability. It's plain as the nose on your face that Jonjo Shelvey plays deeper regardless of our setup, he favours long searching balls, and his mobility is limited. The reason he drops back into the hole in front of the defence is he has neither the will nor ability to play those long passes he loves from the centre of midfield. He hasn't the alacrity of thought, nor feet, to do it in the engine room. 

 

Well, Hayden is a defensive midfielder, his job is to disrupt and be the aggressor so I'd expect him to have committed more fouls and received more yellows. What your cherry picked stats don't show is how many of them are reckless and stupid, which was my point. The difference is that Jonjo Shelvey is ostensibly on the pitch to create, to provide an outlet, provide a goal threat. He doesn't do that consistently well enough to have deserved staying at a Premier League club aiming for midtable.

 

And had we not been owned by Ashley, I'm sure a competent manager would have tried to peddle him toot suite. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wykikitoon 19986]

I think you need to read this book.

 

In his Newcastle career he has played (according to this site which I assume you have used) 3328' of Football in the Premier League.  With a return of 11 goals. I.e  a goal every 302'. or goal every 3.36 games. (195' if inc assists or every 2.18 games.).  or Assists every 555' (1 assist in every 6)

 

I.e you can polish stats to what you want it to show.

Gayle, I loved him in the Championship for us.  I thought he wasn't treated fair by Brewcie / Ashley and should have been let go when we had a decent offer.  But let's be honest.  He isn't Premiership quality.

[Alan Doh'liver 219]

3 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

 

Of course dropping deep a valid attack on Shelvey's ability. It's plain as the nose on your face that Jonjo Shelvey plays deeper regardless of our setup, he favours long searching balls, and his mobility is limited. The reason he drops back into the hole in front of the defence is he has neither the will nor ability to play those long passes he loves from the centre of midfield. He hasn't the alacrity of thought, nor feet, to do it in the engine room. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Plus if he played higher up the pitch, he wouldn't have either the gas or the legs to get back in defensive position if we lost possession....which happens quite a lot unfortunately. 

I honestly think there's more chance of Hendrick having a long term future under Howe than Shelvey. Ultimately they'll both be binned pretty quickly. 

[Rayvin 5188]

Whether Shelvey is our most valuable player or not (he isn't) wasn't the starting point for this particular topic though - it was the idea that under Ashley we hadn't been run down, and that the players are better than they're showing.

 

So on point 1, we were told that £95m net spend in the past 3 years proves that it wasn't run down. Nevermind that £40m of that was spent on Joelinton, or that we're not given any comparative context for our competitors - this number alone proves that Ashley looked after the club. We were 12th in terms of net spend over the past 5 years as far as I can see, with the only teams below us being the carousel of promoted teams. 16th if Joelinton is ignored. I don't think that's great really.

 

The other point was that the players are better than they're showing. Yeah I'd agree with that, plenty of us have said that themselves - it's why we wanted rid of Bruce. But that doesn't mean that these players are capable of taking us on to the next level. It means they're probably good enough to scrape us past relegation season on season, with progressively diminishing returns as they get older. But broadly speaking, I'll agree with that point. Whether Shelvey is a good player or not compared to everyone else we had doesn't make him a good player in general. It just means he's another indicator of where we were under Ashley.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Rayvin

[Tom 14011]

I rate about 3 or 4 of our players which is just as well as that’s how many will survive this takeover

[Dr Gloom 21861]

shelvey looked canny for a season or two under rafa. been shite for us other than that. a passenger/luxury player that a side in our position can ill-afford to carry. 

he can at least pass the ball forwards however, so he is more capable than some of our current midfielders. 

[strawb 4188]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

I rate about 3 or 4 of our players which is just as well as that’s how many will survive this takeover

Yeah but can you prove it with stats or not? If not your opinion is completely wrong

[Christmas Tree 4711]

3 minutes ago, Tom said:

I rate about 3 or 4 of our players which is just as well as that’s how many will survive this takeover

Totally this.

 

Hopefully the rest will be a a hazy memory soon enough.

 

I am however looking forward to seeing how the line up / style of play and improved coaching. / fitness improves them in the short term.

[The Fish 10793]

Just now, Rayvin said:

Whether Shelvey is our most valuable player or not (he isn't) wasn't the starting point for this particular topic though - it was the idea that under Ashley we hadn't been run down, and that the players are better than they're showing.

 

So on point 1, we were told that £95m net spend in the past 3 years proves that it wasn't run down. Nevermind that £40m of that was spent on Joelinton, or that we're not given any comparative context for our competitors - this number alone proves that Ashley looked after the club. We were 12th in terms of net spend over the past 5 years as far as I can see, with the only teams below us being the carousel of promoted teams. 16th if Joelinton is ignored. I don't think that's great really.

 

The other point was that the players are better than they're showing. Yeah I'd agree with that, plenty of us have said that themselves - it's why we wanted rid of Bruce. But that doesn't mean that these players are capable of taking us on to the next level. It means they're probably could enough to scrape us past relegation season on season, with progressively diminishing returns as they get older. But broadly speaking, I'll agree with that point. Whether Shelvey is a good player or not compared to everyone else we had doesn't make him a good player in general. It just means he's another indicator of where we were under Ashley.

 

It's also worth looking at things aside from transfer fees. Look at the way the boardroom has functioned (lol) in the past 14 years under Ashley. We haven't had a proper board of directors since McClaren left (I think). This means fewer people are doing more of the functions required of a modern football club at a senior level. Our recruitment has been haphazard for over a decade, even when Carr was sourcing good players from the French market, there didn't appear to be a joined up plan. 

 

Permitting autonomy for Benitez to overhaul the squad and deliver immediate automatic promotion is great, but don't then restrict his autonomy when we need to spend to build upon that solid foundation. Otherwise you'll be stuck with players like Gayle, Shelvey, on high wages for long contracts. Which means you can't sell them when their stock is high, which means as their impact diminishes their wages become an insurmountable obstacle for teams who may have taken a punt. e.g. We could have sold Gayle to West Brom and taken Rondon, possibly even part exchange. But because the word form on high was a firm NO to older players, we were stuck with Gayle on a permanent deal, and Rondon on a loan. 

 

On Shelvey, it's not just his limited ability and dwindling physicality, it's the way the Premier League is played now. The successful teams play high intensity, high energy football. Even in his pomp he wasn't built for that. We could have sold him to West Ham back in 2019. I can only assume that either wages, or fee was the sticking point. Both of those are the fault of Ashley's NUFC.

[Alan Doh'liver 219]

4 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

It's also worth looking at things aside from transfer fees. Look at the way the boardroom has functioned (lol) in the past 14 years under Ashley. We haven't had a proper board of directors since McClaren left (I think). This means fewer people are doing more of the functions required of a modern football club at a senior level. Our recruitment has been haphazard for over a decade, even when Carr was sourcing good players from the French market, there didn't appear to be a joined up plan. 

 

Permitting autonomy for Benitez to overhaul the squad and deliver immediate automatic promotion is great, but don't then restrict his autonomy when we need to spend to build upon that solid foundation. Otherwise you'll be stuck with players like Gayle, Shelvey, on high wages for long contracts. Which means you can't sell them when their stock is high, which means as their impact diminishes their wages become an insurmountable obstacle for teams who may have taken a punt. e.g. We could have sold Gayle to West Brom and taken Rondon, possibly even part exchange. But because the word form on high was a firm NO to older players, we were stuck with Gayle on a permanent deal, and Rondon on a loan. 

 

On Shelvey, it's not just his limited ability and dwindling physicality, it's the way the Premier League is played now. The successful teams play high intensity, high energy football. Even in his pomp he wasn't built for that. We could have sold him to West Ham back in 2019. I can only assume that either wages, or fee was the sticking point. Both of those are the fault of Ashley's NUFC.

Bang on. 

[Tom 14011]

12 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

Totally this.

 

Hopefully the rest will be a a hazy memory soon enough.

 

I am however looking forward to seeing how the line up / style of play and improved coaching. / fitness improves them in the short term.

Hopefully we can look at that line up vs Spurs in a few years time and have a good laugh.

 

”Ritchie at full back!? “

[MrLogic 16]

37 minutes ago, The Fish said:

Ok, a few sweetcorns to pick out of that pile of shit;

'Outlasting' other players during the tenure of Mike Ashley is no sign of quality. Henri Saivet was at the club for how long? Emmanuel Riviere joine in 2014, left in 2017. Demba Ba joined in the June of 2011 and left in the January of 2013. Riviere outlasted Ba. Who'd you rather have stayed at the club?

 

'Out performing'? By what measure?

Goals? 16 in 7yr, only 9 in the Prem. (~0.1 GpG)

Assists? 24 in 7yr, 12 in the Prem (~ 0.13 ApG) 

Anecdotally? Mythologically?

 

Is that good enough for the chief creator of a team that's aiming to finish midtable of the Premier League?

I mean, Cabaye was only here for 2 1/2 seasons and scored more goals and had more assists than Voldemort has managed.

 

Of course dropping deep a valid attack on Shelvey's ability. It's plain as the nose on your face that Jonjo Shelvey plays deeper regardless of our setup, he favours long searching balls, and his mobility is limited. The reason he drops back into the hole in front of the defence is he has neither the will nor ability to play those long passes he loves from the centre of midfield. He hasn't the alacrity of thought, nor feet, to do it in the engine room. 

 

Well, Hayden is a defensive midfielder, his job is to disrupt and be the aggressor so I'd expect him to have committed more fouls and received more yellows. What your cherry picked stats don't show is how many of them are reckless and stupid, which was my point. The difference is that Jonjo Shelvey is ostensibly on the pitch to create, to provide an outlet, provide a goal threat. He doesn't do that consistently well enough to have deserved staying at a Premier League club aiming for midtable.

 

And had we not been owned by Ashley, I'm sure a competent manager would have tried to peddle him toot suite. 

 

Why are you talking about Demba Ba and Emmanuel Riviere? This is about Shelvey and his peers in central midfield, we have that data (and plenty of it), use it... And for the second time, I never said time equals quality. Last note on that first paragraph, this argument is not about quality, it's about relative quality, meaning when Newcastle's midfielders are compared against one another, who comes out on top? This isn't a Shelvey is the best thing since sliced bread argument, this is a he's the best we've got/had for ~6 years argument.

 

You can use goals and assists to argue whether or not he's out performed his peers let's see using the ones you mentioned:

• Shelvey has scored 16 goals and made 24 assists in 13,513 minutes, a contribution every 338 minutes
• S.Longstaff has scored 5 goals and made 4 assists in 5,689 minutes, a contribution every 632 minutes
• Hayden has scored 7 goals and made 10 assists in 11,955 minutes, a contribution every 703 minutes
• Merino has scored 1 goal and made 1 assist in 1,424 minutes, a contribution every 712 minutes

Would you look at that... I'm for one am shocked!

 

Again, my argument is about Shelvey vs his peers, Cabaye was not his peer. HIs position in the team is down to the management and the style/system that they use, if they want Shelvey (and the team) to play higher, that is on the management, not Shelvey.

 

Shelvey and Hayden play in the same position, YOU'RE the one who brought up Hayden, YOU'RE the one who brought up disciplinary records and YOU'RE the one who brought up goals and assists records. I just did the actual work and provided the statistics, the statistics that YOU chose. I have not cherry picked anything, you chose everything in this debate, you were uninformed and were wrong. Don't resort to lying about me cherry picking data.  Do your research. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Clarko

[Alex 34938]

 

[Monkeys Fist 42149]

46 minutes ago, strawb said:

Yeah but can you prove it with stats or not? If not your opinion is completely wrong

[The Fish 10793]

5 minutes ago, Clarko said:

Why are you talking about Demba Ba and Emmanuel Riviere? This is about Shelvey and his peers in central midfield, we have that data (and plenty of it), use it... And for the second time, I never said time equals quality. Last note on that first paragraph, this argument is not about quality, it's about relative quality, meaning when Newcastle's midfielders are compared against one another, who comes out on top? This isn't a Shelvey is the best thing since sliced bread argument, this is a he's the best we've got/had for ~6 years argument.

 

You can use goals and assists to argue whether or not he's out performed his peers let's see using the ones you mentioned:

• Shelvey has scored 16 goals and made 24 assists in 13,513 minutes, a contribution every 338 minutes
• S.Longstaff has scored 5 goals and made 4 assists in 5,689 minutes, a contribution every 632 minutes
• Hayden has scored 7 goals and made 10 assists in 11,955 minutes, a contribution every 703 minutes
• Merino has scored 1 goal and made 1 assist in 1,424 minutes, a contribution every 712 minutes

Would you look at that... I'm for one am shocked!

 

Again, my argument is about Shelvey vs his peers, Cabaye was not his peer. HIs position in the team is down to the management and the style/system that they use, if they want Shelvey (and the team) to play higher, that is on the management, not Shelvey.

 

Shelvey and Hayden play in the same position, YOU'RE the one who brought up Hayden, YOU'RE the one who brought up disciplinary records and YOU'RE the one who brought up goals and assists records. I just did the actual work and provided the statistics, the statistics that YOU chose. I have not cherry picked anything, you chose everything in this debate, you were uninformed and were wrong. Don't resort to lying about me cherry picking data.  Do your research. 

 

Listen, you can get in a tizz if you like, but the truth of the matter is this;

I specifically said that his cards were reckless and stupid. You find me a source for those metrics and I'll happily provide a pretty graph for it. 

 

Hayden plays as a Defensive Midfielder, Jonjo doesn't. Just because they exist in roughly the same area of the pitch doesn't mean you can compare their roles. 

 

Shelvey is evidence of the club being run down by Ashley. He's not good enough for a Premier League team aiming for midtable. The stats you gleefully think prove I'm wrong are proving me right on the central point of this 'discussion'. Hhis game is to be a creative force and yet we're getting more of that from Murphy, Ritchie etc. 

 

You can try to pivot away from your claim that "he's outlasted and outperformed" every other midfielder (as if context doesn't exist unless it's recorded numerically), you can get angry and put things in CAPS, but the point the original poster was making is that he's shit and needs to go. That he should have been peddled a long time ago. This isn't a controversial opinion and regardless of how special and impressive you think he is, the facts are that a creative midfielder for a Premier League team who has performed as he has, would have been sold/released by any other club. 

[Dr Gloom 21861]

31 minutes ago, Clarko said:

Why are you talking about Demba Ba and Emmanuel Riviere? This is about Shelvey and his peers in central midfield, we have that data (and plenty of it), use it... And for the second time, I never said time equals quality. Last note on that first paragraph, this argument is not about quality, it's about relative quality, meaning when Newcastle's midfielders are compared against one another, who comes out on top? This isn't a Shelvey is the best thing since sliced bread argument, this is a he's the best we've got/had for ~6 years argument.

 

You can use goals and assists to argue whether or not he's out performed his peers let's see using the ones you mentioned:

• Shelvey has scored 16 goals and made 24 assists in 13,513 minutes, a contribution every 338 minutes
• S.Longstaff has scored 5 goals and made 4 assists in 5,689 minutes, a contribution every 632 minutes
• Hayden has scored 7 goals and made 10 assists in 11,955 minutes, a contribution every 703 minutes
• Merino has scored 1 goal and made 1 assist in 1,424 minutes, a contribution every 712 minutes

Would you look at that... I'm for one am shocked!

 

Again, my argument is about Shelvey vs his peers, Cabaye was not his peer. HIs position in the team is down to the management and the style/system that they use, if they want Shelvey (and the team) to play higher, that is on the management, not Shelvey.

 

Shelvey and Hayden play in the same position, YOU'RE the one who brought up Hayden, YOU'RE the one who brought up disciplinary records and YOU'RE the one who brought up goals and assists records. I just did the actual work and provided the statistics, the statistics that YOU chose. I have not cherry picked anything, you chose everything in this debate, you were uninformed and were wrong. Don't resort to lying about me cherry picking data.  Do your research. 

Look, we’ve already got Fish on this board. One like him is enough. Bore off