Euro 2020/1

[Alex 35571]

1 hour ago, essembeeofsunderland said:

Nee humour in your earlier post .Stop digging.You’re struggling lad,really struggling.

Which earlier post, you half-wit? 

[Alex 35571]

1 hour ago, Howay said:

 

I hope I’m wrong, I genuinely do but I’m not convinced his decisions and mistakes are ones he will learn from.

He clearly favors Saka, Mount, Phillips to clearly better players (I think Saka and Mount are both good players fwiw, I just think he has more talented options, I also think Mount was poor all tournament but continued to be selected due to Southgates favoring of him as he supposedly tracks back more than Foden etc). I stand by that I think he’d be better suited as an assistant manager, I just think he tends to miss with a lot of his subs or team selections and criticism of it is being hushed since we reached the final, a final which was reached at times through brilliance from players he shunted to the side in favor of industry. 
 

My main worry is that it was similar to the Croatia SF loss in 2018, we went up early and progressively sat further and further back and rather than make changes to alleviate pressure he just waited. He didn’t learn from that to me, despite having a far more talented and deeper squad. I’m not saying he should have just thrown caution to the wind and threw on attackers but he had a ton of options like swap out Trippier for Henderson so we could have a midfield 3 and try to hold possession for a bit as we were continually out of sorts 30 yards from our goal all second half, or throw on Sancho/Rashford when Bonucci and Chiellini were camped out on halfway to stretch the field and alleviate the pressure that way. We can say it’s hindsight but honestly most people watching recognized changes had to be made and he sat on them. 
 

I’m more than willing to praise him btw, he’s done an excellent job getting the squad to where it is now, clearly his man management skills are brilliant as he’s keeping the squad happy despite the players noted above not playing much. I just see a manager that isn’t great at game day decisions and continually makes odd/overly conservative choices when he doesn’t need to and I really fear it’s not something he will learn from so we will waste chances for a genuinely talented and confident crop of players to fulfill their potential just to keep a nice bloke that has done very well but is arguably starting to hold back the squad a little. Hopefully it’s harsh and he goes on to win us things, not that it’s a must as I know it’s extremely hard to win but to have chances like this one and basically just whiff it and go out fairly meekly is utterly disappointing isn’t really good enough. 
 

It’s all moot anyway, he will be manager going forward I just personally have reservations about his ability to grow with this squad. I think he maximized the potential of the team in the WC but is holding back the potential of this current side. 
 

Want to add, I thought Declan Rice was quality yesterday but I absolutely don’t understand the plaudits Kalvin Phillips gets, hopefully Bellingham continues his trajectory and we see him take place over the severely limited Phillips. 

Great post 👍 

[Dr Gloom 22147]

3 hours ago, Howay said:

 

I hope I’m wrong, I genuinely do but I’m not convinced his decisions and mistakes are ones he will learn from.

He clearly favors Saka, Mount, Phillips to clearly better players (I think Saka and Mount are both good players fwiw, I just think he has more talented options, I also think Mount was poor all tournament but continued to be selected due to Southgates favoring of him as he supposedly tracks back more than Foden etc). I stand by that I think he’d be better suited as an assistant manager, I just think he tends to miss with a lot of his subs or team selections and criticism of it is being hushed since we reached the final, a final which was reached at times through brilliance from players he shunted to the side in favor of industry. 
 

My main worry is that it was similar to the Croatia SF loss in 2018, we went up early and progressively sat further and further back and rather than make changes to alleviate pressure he just waited. He didn’t learn from that to me, despite having a far more talented and deeper squad. I’m not saying he should have just thrown caution to the wind and threw on attackers but he had a ton of options like swap out Trippier for Henderson so we could have a midfield 3 and try to hold possession for a bit as we were continually out of sorts 30 yards from our goal all second half, or throw on Sancho/Rashford when Bonucci and Chiellini were camped out on halfway to stretch the field and alleviate the pressure that way. We can say it’s hindsight but honestly most people watching recognized changes had to be made and he sat on them. 
 

I’m more than willing to praise him btw, he’s done an excellent job getting the squad to where it is now, clearly his man management skills are brilliant as he’s keeping the squad happy despite the players noted above not playing much. I just see a manager that isn’t great at game day decisions and continually makes odd/overly conservative choices when he doesn’t need to and I really fear it’s not something he will learn from so we will waste chances for a genuinely talented and confident crop of players to fulfill their potential just to keep a nice bloke that has done very well but is arguably starting to hold back the squad a little. Hopefully it’s harsh and he goes on to win us things, not that it’s a must as I know it’s extremely hard to win but to have chances like this one and basically just whiff it and go out fairly meekly is utterly disappointing isn’t really good enough. 
 

It’s all moot anyway, he will be manager going forward I just personally have reservations about his ability to grow with this squad. I think he maximized the potential of the team in the WC but is holding back the potential of this current side. 
 

Want to add, I thought Declan Rice was quality yesterday but I absolutely don’t understand the plaudits Kalvin Phillips gets, hopefully Bellingham continues his trajectory and we see him take place over the severely limited Phillips. 

Some fair points there. Still think you’re being a bit tough on the manager. I agree with you on his safety-first approach. I was screaming for him to put on Grealish and Sancho in the second half when we lost control of the game. But I said the same about his conservative line ups and tactics in previous games which we went on to win so wtf do I know?
 

This feels like a massive opportunity lost. We will get to another major final in our lifetimes again? But in Southgate’s defence, he has achieved more than any England manager since Alf Ramsey, the players have bought into it, clearly are playing for him and he’s a thoroughly decent bloke to boot. Also, the safety first approach has been a successful model for other international football managers in recent years - the French fans never really took to Deschamps for the same reason, despite him winning the last World Cup. Will he and his players learn from their mistakes and be more positive and proactive when they go through those spells out of possession? I suppose we’ll find out in Qatar. He has obviously earned at least one more crack at a major tournament. 
 

Managers always have their favourites and players they trust. It’s always been this way and it can be infuriating to us armchair supporters but I’m going to have to disagree on Kalvin Phillips. I hadn’t seen much of him before the tournament and initially thought he looked too defensive to be playing alongside Rice but I thought he had a really impressive tournament - he obviously has something about him to be keeping the liverpool captain on the bench. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Dr Gloom

[ewerk 31195]

Good luck getting a route to the final as easy as that in Qatar.

[Dr Gloom 22147]

2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Good luck getting a route to the final as easy as that in Qatar.

World cups can be easier to win than the euros. Some right Micky mouse outfits make up the numbers 

[Gemmill 46024]

 

 

I'm not even sure if this bloke is racist or just really shit at making edgy jokes. 

 

Either way comedy clubs have been telling him he's no longer welcome to perform at their venues all day and his management has dumped him. 

 

 

[Gemmill 46024]

Oh and contrary to his twitter handle, his next gig is no longer in Worcester:

 

 

[Alex 35571]

17 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

World cups can be easier to win than the euros. Some right Micky mouse outfits make up the numbers 

When has a relative minnow won one then? Compare that with the Euros or the Copa America 

[Alex 35571]

20 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

 

I'm not even sure if this bloke is racist or just really shit at making edgy jokes. 

 

Either way comedy clubs have been telling him he's no longer welcome to perform at their venues all day and his management has dumped him. 

 

 

Looks like he’s deleted his account. And his career

[Dr Gloom 22147]

3 minutes ago, Alex said:

When has a relative minnow won one then? Compare that with the Euros or the Copa America 

I should probably have said easier to navigate than win. There are loads of teams making up the numbers from the random confederations in the early rounds before the Europeans and South Americans rise to the top. Belgium were the only top team we played before Croatia put us out in the semis last time. That said, this year’s euros felt bloated too with the likes of north Macedonia and Finland in the mix and some third place finishes qualifying for the knock out stage.  

I suppose my point was another run to the semis in Qatar shouldn’t be beyond us. I agree with Howay that Southgate will need to learn how to be braver and more proactive with his changes but I still think the bloke has done a brilliant job and definitely deserves another crack at it.  

[Gemmill 46024]

8 minutes ago, Alex said:

Looks like he’s deleted his account. And his career

 

Hoofed off twitter, I think. Still pumping out GREAT content on YouTube though if anyone wants to check him out. 

[Alex 35571]

8 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

I should probably have said easier to navigate than win. There are loads of teams making up the numbers from the random confederations in the early rounds before the Europeans and South Americans rise to the top. Belgium were the only top team we played before Croatia put us out in the semis last time. That said, this year’s euros felt bloated too with the likes of north Macedonia and Finland in the mix and some third place finishes qualifying for the knock out stage.  

I suppose my point was another run to the semis in Qatar shouldn’t be beyond us. I agree with Howay that Southgate will need to learn how to be braver and more proactive with his changes but I still think the bloke has done a brilliant job and definitely deserves another crack at it.  

You can definitely get the luck of the draw in the World Cup finals and have a good run without playing anyone that good but the equation is there’s more quality so it’s harder to win. This felt like a rare opportunity which comes around once a generation if you’re lucky though. Hope I’m wrong, obviously. 

[Monkeys Fist 43066]

36 minutes ago, Alex said:

When has a relative minnow won one then? Compare that with the Euros or the Copa America 

1966. 

[thebrokendoll 9454]

4 hours ago, Howmanheyman said:

I said to a lad at work when it got down to the nitty gritty Southgate probably wouldn't be good enough and as good a job he's done uniting the players and being a good egg it's not enough if you want to win a tournament. Maybe harsh but he wouldn't get near a top side if he left the England job. 

 

pretty much where I'm with it.

thought other than the second half against a dead on their feet ukraine we were overwhelmingly poor.

very fortunate to be on the good side of the round of 16, had we been on the other I reckon its extremely unlikely we'd have made the quarter finals.

[Kid Dynamite 7169]

We took the best team in the tournament to penalties. France, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Germany all flattered to deceive. And if the Copa America final is anything to go by then Brazil and Argentina are bang average these days. 
 

We might have had an easy route to the final but I still fancied us to give anyone a game. We've probably got the strongest squad in the world at the minute if Southgate can learn to use it properly. Foden, Sancho, Grealish, Rashford, Saka, Henderson, Bellingham didn't even get in the starting XI yesterday 

[PaddockLad 17645]

On 09/07/2021 at 08:38, PaddockLad said:

 

They can't bare to be left out but Southgate & the players have really shoved their bigotry right back down their throats...that's what the anti knee thing is about, I can't escape the thought that those most upset by it likely deep down have some fairly nasty opinions & can't handle the fact that BLM exposes them every time they object to it...

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2021/jul/08/england-and-southgate-stop-divisive-politicians-hijacking-euro-2020-success?__twitter_impression=true

Tyrone Mings is a double good cunt and puts it far better than I ever could...

 

 

[aimaad22 4222]

Tough luck lads, getting that close after all this time. You have to give credit to Southgate and the team for getting nearly there, but I completely agree with those saying there has to be a change in mentality and tactics to get the maximum potential from this squad.

 

There are some clear differences in the England squad from some earlier ones. A more united, driven, passionate and down to earth bunch of lads. There are some similarities as well, and they mostly have to do with the mindset and tactics. A familiar cautious, safety first approach, players that seem to be playing with shackles at times. And that is down to Southgate of course. The danger is, because he now has gotten this close, he might think its worth sticking too again. It almost worked this time but..

 

Your traditional international powerhouses, Germany, Brazil, Italy, France etc. They have had some pretty spectacular failures in recent years haven't they? From not qualifying for major tournaments to embarrassing early exits and huge defeats. Yet they're back and winning something again within the next few years. Fear of failure doesn't stop them from backing their best players and taking a chance. England always seem to qualify, move past the group stages only to lose by the odd goal or on penalties. No spectacular failure,  and no trophies. Always a restrained, shackled team that seems to be playing in 3rd gear. Southgate is not the man to change this.

 

Playing at Wembley in a final, with your best squad in many years, and you choose to play 5 defenders and 2 defensive midfielders. Says it all really. Predictably someone like Chiesa was the most ambitious player on the pitch rather than Sterling or Grealish or Sancho.

With this squad, there is a slight chance Southgate might deliver a Greece/Portugal style tournament victory in the next 3 years, and which England fan wouldn't take that. But there is a chance to build a truly great team with these players, a chance to rival the best for years to come.

[Howay 12496]

2 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

Some fair points there. Still think you’re being a bit tough on the manager. I agree with you on his safety-first approach. I was screaming for him to put on Grealish and Sancho in the second half when we lost control of the game. But I said the same about his conservative line ups and tactics in previous games which we went on to win so wtf do I know?
 

This feels like a massive opportunity lost. We will get to another major final in our lifetimes again? But in Southgate’s defence, he has achieved more than any England manager since Alf Ramsey, the players have bought into it, clearly are playing for him and he’s a thoroughly decent bloke to boot. Also, the safety first approach has been a successful model for other international football managers in recent years - the French fans never really took to Deschamps for the same reason, despite him winning the last World Cup. Will he and his players learn from their mistakes and be more positive and proactive when they go through those spells out of possession? I suppose we’ll find out in Qatar. He has obviously earned at least one more crack at a major tournament. 
 

Managers always have their favourites and players they trust. It’s always been this way and it can be infuriating to us armchair supporters but I’m going to have to disagree on Kalvin Phillips. I hadn’t seen much of him before the tournament and initially thought he looked too defensive to be playing alongside Rice but I thought he had a really impressive tournament - he obviously has something about him to be keeping the liverpool captain on the bench. 

Yeah, I don’t think we should sack him or anything. I think like you say he deserves the 2022 WC, but I really think he has to show improvement as imo there’s some real issues with his game day team management that ultimately cost us after we got away with it a little earlier in the tournament through the strength of our players. Like KD just said I think this squad is becoming a premier side at the international level, with most of the squad playing at the highest levels of the club game and Southgate needs to grow with the side and allow them to start to assert pressure of their own rather than just backing off a shying a little from teams based upon name. I rate the Italian side, I did before the tournament but I don’t think they were some Goliath that we should have feared and respected them to the degree we seemed to in the second half, having so little possession against them and doing nothing to try and remedy it was my biggest complaint. 
 

I get the ‘he made the final doing it this way’ defence but I think we also have room to criticize him as I really do think we didn’t assert ourselves on the tournament like the squad likely can and relied on being hard to beat, I take your point regarding France but I’d also say that the players France have at their disposal lend better to that. Kante and Matuidi are/were the premier defensive mids in the game, Varane is arguably the best CB around, with Pavard, Hernandez etc all leading in their positions. On the flip side our strength is our attack and Southgate shied away from that to try and make us hard to break down, it’s a viable enough tactic and it’s admirable he stuck to his guns but he deserves criticism when it’s ultimately what cost us. 
 

I think ultimately I’m at the point where I commend him for everything he’s done, and I really do think he’s done a good job, but he also deserves criticism as we’re moving away from being an ‘underdog’ type team (I know we have the resources underdogs don’t but I mean more in terms of the ability of the players he had in 2018) into being a team that can genuinely challenge for tournaments, and with that transition he has to also grow and allow the team a platform to perform, having basically 1 shot and 29% possession over 90 minutes in what was really a home fixture isn’t the platform. 
 

Regarding Kalvin Phillips we’ll have to agree to disagree, I saw nothing to suggest he’s good enough in this tournament for him to be a starter in a squad pushing like we seem to want to do, I think he got in because Henderson was coming back from injury and he just did enough for Southgate to keep picking him but we absolutely need more there or we’re going to keep struggling when we come up against sides with better CM pairings like Italy had. Hopefully Bellingham keeps up his emergence and Southgate puts faith in him like he did with Saka, as Bellingham is by far and away a better player than Phillips. 

[Blastronaut 1344]

2 minutes ago, Kid Dynamite said:

We took the best team in the tournament to penalties. France, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Germany all flattered to deceive. And if the Copa America final is anything to go by then Brazil and Argentina are bang average these days. 
 

We might have had an easy route to the final but I still fancied us to give anyone a game. We've probably got the strongest squad in the world at the minute if Southgate can learn to use it properly. Foden, Sancho, Grealish, Rashford, Saka, Henderson, Bellingham didn't even get in the starting XI yesterday 

 

 

Fucking pains me to have to agree with you but this is also how I see it. 

 

2 minutes ago, aimaad22 said:

Tough luck lads, getting that close after all this time. You have to give credit to Southgate and the team for getting nearly there, but I completely agree with those saying there has to be a change in mentality and tactics to get the maximum potential from this squad.

 

There are some clear differences in the England squad from some earlier ones. A more united, driven, passionate and down to earth bunch of lads. There are some similarities as well, and they mostly have to do with the mindset and tactics. A familiar cautious, safety first approach, players that seem to be playing with shackles at times. And that is down to Southgate of course. The danger is, because he now has gotten this close, he might think its worth sticking too again. It almost worked this time but..

 

Your traditional international powerhouses, Germany, Brazil, Italy, France etc. They have had some pretty spectacular failures in recent years haven't they? From not qualifying for major tournaments to embarrassing early exits and huge defeats. Yet they're back and winning something again within the next few years. Fear of failure doesn't stop them from backing their best players and taking a chance. England always seem to qualify, move past the group stages only to lose by the odd goal or on penalties. No spectacular failure,  and no trophies. Always a restrained, shackled team that seems to be playing in 3rd gear. Southgate is not the man to change this.

 

Playing at Wembley in a final, with your best squad in many years, and you choose to play 5 defenders and 2 defensive midfielders. Says it all really. Predictably someone like Chiesa was the most ambitious player on the pitch rather than Sterling or Grealish or Sancho.

With this squad, there is a slight chance Southgate might deliver a Greece/Portugal style tournament victory in the next 3 years, and which England fan wouldn't take that. But there is a chance to build a truly great team with these players, a chance to rival the best for years to come.

 

Just tactics if you ask me and even then only slightly.

 

Where the fuck do you go tactically if you're defending a lead for 88 minutes and already have two defensive midfielders on the park? Take one of them off? 

 

Rode his luck at times but that's international football. Bringing on three forwards who had barely kicked a ball all tournament with a view to take penalties was the only real decision I really think he got wrong. And that's before you even consider they were all young and black and thrown in front of a full house of fans that quite vocally opposed the earlier  anti-racism gesture.

[thebrokendoll 9454]

29 minutes ago, Kid Dynamite said:

We took the best team in the tournament to penalties. France, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Germany all flattered to deceive. And if the Copa America final is anything to go by then Brazil and Argentina are bang average these days. 
 

We might have had an easy route to the final but I still fancied us to give anyone a game. We've probably got the strongest squad in the world at the minute if Southgate can learn to use it properly. Foden, Sancho, Grealish, Rashford, Saka, Henderson, Bellingham didn't even get in the starting XI yesterday 

 

I think all the teams you've listed produced better than we did, albeit inconsistently.

I also agree entirely that we have a very strong squad, they don't appear to have been utilised as well as they could though.

I accept it's harsh to criticise southgate bearing in mind a semi and a final appearance in the last two tournaments, however we have been extremely fortunate in the way this one has progressed. maybe southgate rather than needing more time isn't the bloke to do it? 

[Blastronaut 1344]

6 minutes ago, thebrokendoll said:

 

Maybe southgate rather than needing more time isn't the bloke to do it? 

 

Quality. Dump the guy who got you the furthest you've been in 55 years a mere 30 seconds after a penalty shoot out final.

 

I'll humour you though, who would you want in his place? I hear Hodgson and Big Sam are out of work again.

[Renton 21985]

52 minutes ago, Kid Dynamite said:

We took the best team in the tournament to penalties. France, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Germany all flattered to deceive. And if the Copa America final is anything to go by then Brazil and Argentina are bang average these days. 
 

We might have had an easy route to the final but I still fancied us to give anyone a game. We've probably got the strongest squad in the world at the minute if Southgate can learn to use it properly. Foden, Sancho, Grealish, Rashford, Saka, Henderson, Bellingham didn't even get in the starting XI yesterday 

 

England had home advantage and were ultimately outclassed by the only quality opposition they faced. Getting to pens yesterday flattered England imo. They also struggled against Scotland. I think they're a good side in an era where there aren't any outstanding sides, like France or Spain of the recent past. One will probably emerge though. 

[thebrokendoll 9454]

1 minute ago, Blastronaut said:

 

Quality. Dump the guy who got you the furthest you've been in 55 years a mere 30 seconds after a penalty shoot out final.

 

I'll humour you though, who would you want in his place? I hear Hodgson and Big Sam are out of work again.

 

steve bruce.

[aimaad22 4222]

16 minutes ago, Blastronaut said:

Where the fuck do you go tactically if you're defending a lead for 88 minutes and already have two defensive midfielders on the park? Take one of them off? 

 

Not start 7 defense minded outfield players perhaps? There is a natural tendency to defend leads in every team, but keeping possession and having a more fluid midfield can help with that. Chielini was quite literally making runs down the left flank ffs because there was nothing to worry him at the other end. 

[Blastronaut 1344]

6 minutes ago, aimaad22 said:

 

Not start 7 defense minded outfield players perhaps? 

 

I'd normally agree but you'se scored within two minutes and held them off for a solid hour while looking like you could've got a second.

 

You lost out on incredibly fine margins which is generally the nature of international tournaments.

 

15 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

 They also struggled against Scotland. 

 

As delighted as I was with that result I'd say "struggled" is a stretch. England set up for a draw knowing a point would take them through and take the pressure off for their last group game. Bore draw was a fair result but England were playing for that and Scotland really needed the 3 points.