Film/moving picture show you most recently watched

[The Fish 10972]

Don't think Nolan's trilogy was actually improved by the origin story mind. The first film was fairly weak. The second two were much stronger in terms of narrative and dramatic effect. I think the second two could have happened without the origin... certainly the third one. Maybe the second needed it for the emotional attachment to 'Rachel'.

 

I think the first one pales in hindsight, but at the time it was outstanding. It hasn't aged brilliantly, but I remember being absolutely blown away by it when it first came out. 

 

There'd been a slew of Superhero movies that were absolutely terrible; Elektra, Catwoman, Blade Trinity, and it looked like they would only get worse. Batman Begins wasn't just a movie that bucked that trend, it also changed the rules. You didn't have to camp it up

and make the bangs bigger and the outfits more ludicrous. You could go more grounded, grittier. I think without Batman Begins you can't have the world that the other two operate in. I also think without BB you wouldn't have had Iron Man and the birth of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. 

[adios 717]

Love that by far the most passionate debates on here are about superhero movies.

[The Fish 10972]

Love that by far the most passionate debates on here are about superhero movies.

I can't contribute to the politics threads so...

[David Kelly 1260]

Don't think Nolan's trilogy was actually improved by the origin story mind. The first film was fairly weak. The second two were much stronger in terms of narrative and dramatic effect. I think the second two could have happened without the origin... certainly the third one. Maybe the second needed it for the emotional attachment to 'Rachel'.

I pretty much agree but I will give Begins a bit of leeway because as Fish says, Burton's Batman was never really an origin film (although I thought that was a point in it's favour).

The 20 years between Reeve's Superman and the next one still isn't near long enough to necessitate a new origin story when the origin is so well established it's unreal.  There's surely not a soul who's interested in seeing a Superman film who isn't aware of his origin and any one who isn't can discover it so easily.  

 

The crux of it for me is that the origin story's are rarely the most interesting stories there are about a character even when they do show how they have come to be who they are.  Without being a comic book nerd I've read some of the bigger stories that have involved Batman and Superman and they are far more interesting and these days they are technically doable.  Why repeat the same stories when you can tell new better ones?

[Dr Gloom 22185]

the mutations from the spider bite are allegories of pubescent sexuality, ascent into adulthood, and drugs.

 

i'm sorry but  

[Dr Gloom 22185]

I can't contribute to the politics threads so...

 

if someone as ill informed as CT can, anyone can

[Rayvin 5311]

I think the first one pales in hindsight, but at the time it was outstanding. It hasn't aged brilliantly, but I remember being absolutely blown away by it when it first came out. 

 

There'd been a slew of Superhero movies that were absolutely terrible; Elektra, Catwoman, Blade Trinity, and it looked like they would only get worse. Batman Begins wasn't just a movie that bucked that trend, it also changed the rules. You didn't have to camp it up

and make the bangs bigger and the outfits more ludicrous. You could go more grounded, grittier. I think without Batman Begins you can't have the world that the other two operate in. I also think without BB you wouldn't have had Iron Man and the birth of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. 

 

This is a fair point I suppose, but I can't remember how I felt about it at the time now sadly. I think the second one blew me away more though.

 

Could have done without the cringetastic gif though Fucking hell Fantastic Four was bad.

[Rayvin 5311]

I pretty much agree but I will give Begins a bit of leeway because as Fish says, Burton's Batman was never really an origin film (although I thought that was a point in it's favour).

The 20 years between Reeve's Superman and the next one still isn't near long enough to necessitate a new origin story when the origin is so well established it's unreal.  There's surely not a soul who's interested in seeing a Superman film who isn't aware of his origin and any one who isn't can discover it so easily.  

 

The crux of it for me is that the origin story's are rarely the most interesting stories there are about a character even when they do show how they have come to be who they are.  Without being a comic book nerd I've read some of the bigger stories that have involved Batman and Superman and they are far more interesting and these days they are technically doable.  Why repeat the same stories when you can tell new better ones?

 

I know what you mean. As you said before, maybe it's nothing more than directors wanting to put their own mark on it, and finding such things easiest to do in the origin story. Vanity at the end of the day.

[adios 717]

i'm sorry but

 GOLD!

[The Fish 10972]

I pretty much agree but I will give Begins a bit of leeway because as Fish says, Burton's Batman was never really an origin film (although I thought that was a point in it's favour).

The 20 years between Reeve's Superman and the next one still isn't near long enough to necessitate a new origin story when the origin is so well established it's unreal.  There's surely not a soul who's interested in seeing a Superman film who isn't aware of his origin and any one who isn't can discover it so easily.  

 

The crux of it for me is that the origin story's are rarely the most interesting stories there are about a character even when they do show how they have come to be who they are.  Without being a comic book nerd I've read some of the bigger stories that have involved Batman and Superman and they are far more interesting and these days they are technically doable.  Why repeat the same stories when you can tell new better ones?

 

I think if Nolan had lurched into Dark Knight without first setting up that world, we'd have struggled to buy the concept. Superman is a famous story with a familiar mythology no doubt, but Man of Steel was definitely supposed to be a setup for Dawn of Justice. The idea was obviously to give Batman a reason to distrust and fear Superman. The guy obliterated a city centre, killing hundreds of thousands of people. If we went into DoJ without seeing that, would we buy Batman's antagonism? (Not saying the film succeeded in it's plan, but that was surely the plan). 

 

And without it being an Origin movie, even a poor one as it was, Man of Steel would have basically been one of the Transformers movies. To get the audience on board with the DCEU, the audience needed to be reintroduced to Superman's mythos and have that mythos translated into the vocabulary of the grittier world where Batfleck, Wonder Woman, the Flash and Aquaman can exist, rather than Brandon Routh's shiny world.

 

i'm sorry but

 

It is

 

if someone as ill informed as CT can, anyone can

Dunning-Kruger

[Dr Gloom 22185]

it's goodies v baddies, i think you might be reading a little too much into it.  and i'm speaking as a fan of spider man. it's the one super hero character that i loved as a child, and i enjoyed the movies way more than a lot of the other dross we've seen from the likes of marvel. 

[adios 717]

Dunning-Kruger

Could apply to any of us.

[The Fish 10972]

This is a fair point I suppose, but I can't remember how I felt about it at the time now sadly. I think the second one blew me away more though.

 

Could have done without the cringetastic gif though Fucking hell Fantastic Four was bad.

 

The second one had one cool CGI scene, but nothing else, Catwoman didn't even have that. Everything looked like it was built out of balsa wood and bounced cheques

 

I know what you mean. As you said before, maybe it's nothing more than directors wanting to put their own mark on it, and finding such things easiest to do in the origin story. Vanity at the end of the day.

 

I also think because origin stories are generally popular, studios mistake interest in a fresh character for interest in any old origin story. So, instead of introducing Nova, they'd rather do another Spider Man reboot. "Hey they loved the first Spiderman movie, we'll just do that again!"

 

As an aside, it looks like they're having some fun with Thor's character in the new film. The short marketing clips seem to be pivoting him towards a more comedic role. Makes sense as I don't see Black Panther providing many LOLs.

[Andrew 4872]

it's goodies v baddies, i think you might be reading a little too much into it.  and i'm speaking as a fan of spider man. it's the one super hero character that i loved as a child, and i enjoyed the movies way more than a lot of the other dross we've seen from the likes of marvel. 

 

maybe back in the day but the writers like to put more into it these days.

 

Or does Xmen not deliberately parallel racial or sexual discrimination in the way it handles mutants versus non-mutants?

[David Kelly 1260]

I think if Nolan had lurched into Dark Knight without first setting up that world, we'd have struggled to buy the concept. Superman is a famous story with a familiar mythology no doubt, but Man of Steel was definitely supposed to be a setup for Dawn of Justice. The idea was obviously to give Batman a reason to distrust and fear Superman. The guy obliterated a city centre, killing hundreds of thousands of people. If we went into DoJ without seeing that, would we buy Batman's antagonism? (Not saying the film succeeded in it's plan, but that was surely the plan). 

 

And without it being an Origin movie, even a poor one as it was, Man of Steel would have basically been one of the Transformers movies. To get the audience on board with the DCEU, the audience needed to be reintroduced to Superman's mythos and have that mythos translated into the vocabulary of the grittier world where Batfleck, Wonder Woman, the Flash and Aquaman can exist, rather than Brandon Routh's shiny world.

 

 

It is

 

Dunning-Kruger

I don't know about not accepting The Dark Knight without Begins.  Personally I wasn't a massive fan of Begins until after Dark Knight, but I do think the story there was a bit more than an origin or at least a re imagining of the origin.

 

I don't think Man Of Steel needed to be an origin story to show reason for Batman to distrust him in Dawn Of Justice.  You just have to reveal that Superman is an alien and his actions have inadvertently endangered humans and smashed the place up.  Those films are shite like and it's not because they are or aren't origin stories.

[The Fish 10972]

it's goodies v baddies, i think you might be reading a little too much into it.  and i'm speaking as a fan of spider man. it's the one super hero character that i loved as a child, and i enjoyed the movies way more than a lot of the other dross we've seen from the likes of marvel. 

 

It is, but there is more to most of the comic book titles. Spider Man is puberty and drugs and whatnot, X-Men is racism and bigotry, Iron Man was about nasty evil communism during Cold War era, but now it's pretty much Atlas Shrugged with added tank missiles.

 

Could apply to any of us.

Yeah, but I'm the side of the coin that basically thinks that if the point/opinion I have about a political situation was worthwhile, someone would have made it by now. I'm not as well read on actual real world events as I am on the goings on inside a comic book.     

[adios 717]

maybe back in the day but the writers like to put more into it these days.

 

Or does Xmen not deliberately parallel racial or sexual discrimination in the way it handles mutants versus non-mutants?

Doesn't every second movie do something like that?  Harry Potter does it ffs.

[The Fish 10972]

I don't know about not accepting The Dark Knight without Begins.  Personally I wasn't a massive fan of Begins until after Dark Knight, but I do think the story there was a bit more than an origin or at least a re imagining of the origin.

 

I don't think Man Of Steel needed to be an origin story to show reason for Batman to distrust him in Dawn Of Justice.  You just have to reveal that Superman is an alien and his actions have inadvertently endangered humans and smashed the place up.  Those films are shite like and it's not because they are or aren't origin stories.

 

See, I don't think you've a problem with origin movies, I think you've a problem with bad origin movies.

[Alex 35616]

Doesn't every second movie do something like that?  Harry Potter does it ffs.

I reckon the use of metaphors is quite common in fiction in general

[Andrew 4872]

I reckon the use of metaphors is quite common in fiction in general

 

Nah man, goodies versus baddies innit.

[David Kelly 1260]

See, I don't think you've a problem with origin movies, I think you've a problem with bad origin movies.

I don't have a problem with origin movies.  I have a problem with repeated origin movies.  If they do what they did with Batman Begins and offer something beyond Bruce Waynes parents being murdered that's fine.  But I don't need to be repeatedly shown the Waynes being murdered, Jor El sending Kal El off to Earth from Krypton or Peter Parker getting bitten by a radioactive spider.  It's necessary once and then they need to move on.  All this retelling from new directors/actors/writers/studios is bollocks whether they can do it well or not.  A well told Superman origin film now would be as unsatisfying at this stage as a bad one for Black Panther or Booster Gold or whoever else is next up.

[Dr Gloom 22185]

Nah man, goodies versus baddies innit.

 

no, i can see now - it's definitely all about pubescent sexuality, ascent into adulthood, and drugs, clearly that was the obvious takeaway from spiderman all along - how did i miss it?  

[adios 717]

I reckon the use of metaphors is quite common in fiction in general

What are these metaphors you speak of?

[The Fish 10972]

no, i can see now - it's definitely all about pubescent sexuality, ascent into adulthood, and drugs, clearly that was the obvious takeaway from spiderman all along - how did i miss it?

 

Because it's a superhero movie. 

 

 

I don't have a problem with origin movies.  I have a problem with repeated origin movies.  If they do what they did with Batman Begins and offer something beyond Bruce Waynes parents being murdered that's fine.  But I don't need to be repeatedly shown the Waynes being murdered, Jor El sending Kal El off to Earth from Krypton or Peter Parker getting bitten by a radioactive spider.  It's necessary once and then they need to move on.  All this retelling from new directors/actors/writers/studios is bollocks whether they can do it well or not.  A well told Superman origin film now would be as unsatisfying at this stage as a bad one for Black Panther or Booster Gold or whoever else is next up.

 

The kids of 15 might not have been alive for Toby Maguire's Spider Man and might not even have watched Garfield's. They haven't had a Spider Man of their own and while the upcoming movie isn't going to be a classic origin movie it is yet another reboot. That's who the studios are hoping turn up to the cinemas. Teenagers who'll watch the movie, buy the toys, play the video games, wear the merchandise and spend a fortune of their parents money on in-game purchases. 

 

Have to say I'm glad both major stables are departing from the heavy hitters. There's no way Guardians of the Galaxy would have been made if Iron Man and subsequently the Avengers hadn't knocked it out the park. DC now have the confidence to give Suicide Squad their own movie and while it might have been a misstep, it hasn't stopped them reaching out of the comfort zone and they're apparently pushing properties like Shazam and Nightwing.

 

In short, the studios preferred to reboot the icons, who they're convinced will get bums on seats no matter how bad the movie is, rather than risk millions on a maybe. Maybe because they've been burned by Daredevil, Elektra, Constantine et al?

 

Batman and Robin btw... Apparently "Anthony Hopkins was the first choice for Mr. Freeze, while Hulk Hogan was Schumacher’s third choice, which makes Batman and Robin the only movie in the history of mankind in which Hulk Hogan and Anthony Hopkins were up for the same role."

[Howmanheyman 33916]

This thread.