TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Dougle said: Of course it’s fucking relevant, they were playing for second place (above local rivals too), we lost a striker and then went on to score 3 of our goals. ‘Fucks sake’. Can't have. It wouldn't be pragmatic to score 5 with 10 men Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34954 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 A massive part of that performance was there being zero pressure on our players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polarboy 2311 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said: Why would he "build a pragmatic side". Pragmatism is about "horses for courses", making the best decisions in relation to the resources available. When those resources are the Saudi PIF, the pragmatic move is to buy the best players around. Do you think Benitez wanted to sit 11 men behind the ball vs City? Do you think he'd play like that with better players? You're not listening to what I'm saying. Rafa has never changed his counter attacking style of football regardless of the quality of players he's had at his disposal throughout his career. Counter attacking is a pragmatic style of play regardless of the quality of the players you have at your disposal. I personally would like to see the pressing, attacking style of someone like a Pochettino. If you like counter attacking football that's fair enough, but if I have the choice it's not for me. What we did at Man City could barely even be called counter attacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polarboy 2311 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 12 minutes ago, Dougle said: Of course it’s fucking relevant, they were playing for second place (above local rivals too), we lost a striker and then went on to score 3 of our goals. ‘Fucks sake’. No, one game in a season is not relevant when you are presumably comparing who is a better manager, that's completely fecking ludicrous. And as Alex said there was no pressure on us at all. There is always weird results at the end of the season like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, Polarboy said: You're not listening to what I'm saying. Rafa has never changed his counter attacking style of football regardless of the quality of players he's had at his disposal throughout his career. Counter attacking is a pragmatic style of play regardless of the quality of the players you have at your disposal. I personally would like to see the pressing, attacking style of someone like a Pochettino. If you like counter attacking football that's fair enough, but if I have the choice it's not for me. What we did at Man City could barely even be called counter attacking. I mean, you're wrong, but assuming you're not then in which case, you're using "pragmatic" wrong. Rigidly sticking to counter-attack is the opposite of pragmatism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polarboy 2311 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said: I mean, you're wrong, but assuming you're not then in which case, you're using "pragmatic" wrong. Rigidly sticking to counter-attack is the opposite of pragmatism. Again no I'm not. Pragmatism is always doing what you think will achieve your goal, in this case winning matches. Counter attacking is by definition staying compact and waiting for your opponent to make a mistake. An attacking style of play with lots of pressing brings bigger risks, but possible greater rewards as we've seen with Liverpool and Man City. Edit. I should say that pragmatism is doing what you think will achieve your goal in a sensible and cautious way. Edited May 23, 2020 by Polarboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OTF 7287 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Just where will this thrilling discussion take us next.... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polarboy 2311 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 It has started to go round in circles to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, Polarboy said: Again no I'm not. Pragmatism is always doing what you think will achieve your goal, in this case winning matches. Counter attacking is by definition staying compact and waiting for your opponent to make a mistake. An attacking style of play with lots of pressing brings bigger risks, but possible greater rewards as we've seen with Liverpool and Man City. But what about with Spurs? He's already had the side to go toe-to-toe with those with this "style". He won nowt and got sacked. Meanwhile the pragmatist has a drawer full of medals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polarboy 2311 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said: But what about with Spurs? He's already had the side to go toe-to-toe with those with this "style". He won nowt and got sacked. Meanwhile the pragmatist has a drawer full of medals. He went toe to toe with almost one hand tied behind his back when you compare money spent on players and wages. And Rafa is 12 years older than Pochettino. If Pochettino still hasn't won anything while being at financially powerful clubs in 12 years, you'll have an argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Polarboy said: He went toe to toe with almost one hand tied behind his back when you compare money spent on players and wages. And Rafa is 12 years older than Pochettino. If Pochettino still hasn't won anything while being at financially powerful clubs in 12 years, you'll have an argument. Benitez had already won 2 European trophies and La Liga twice by Poch's age iirc. Oh and a super cup, and an fa cup And well as individually La Liga Best Coach: 2002 UEFA Manager of the Year: 2003–04, 2004–05 European Coach of the Year—Alf Ramsey Award: 2005 LMA Special Merit Award: 2006 It seems the 'progressive' Poch is leagues away. Barely worth mentioning in the same sentence. Edited May 23, 2020 by TheGingerQuiff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polarboy 2311 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said: Benitez had already won 2 European trophies and La Liga by Poch's age iirc And? He had massive backing at Valencia at the time if I recall correctly. And what he did at Liverpool was incredible no doubt. It's not as if I'm saying Rafa isn't on his level, what I'm saying is that I'd prefer Pochettino's playing style, and that just because Pochettino hasn't won a major honour yet, it doesn't mean he won't or is a lesser manager than Rafa when you factor in the age difference, and how close he was at Spurs despite being hampered by Levy. Here's a page on his net spend at Spurs https://www.footballfancast.com/premier-league/tottenham/spurs-fans-react-to-pochettino-net-spend-stats He literally had a higher net spend at Southampton. Only really Klopp can compete in terms of how clever he's been with his spending, and the subsequent success that has come. Edited May 23, 2020 by Polarboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Polarboy said: And? He had massive backing at Valencia at the time if I recall correctly. And what he did at Liverpool was incredible no doubt. It's not as if I'm saying Rafa isn't on his level, what I'm saying is that I'd prefer Pochettino's playing style, and that just because Pochettino hasn't won a major honour yet, it doesn't mean he won't or is a lesser manager than Rafa when you factor in the age difference and how close he was at Spurs despite being hampered by Levy. Here's a page on his net spend at Spurs https://www.footballfancast.com/premier-league/tottenham/spurs-fans-react-to-pochettino-net-spend-stats He literally had a higher net spend at Southampton. Only really Klopp can compete in terms of how clever he's been with his spending, and the subsequent success that has come. It's easy to attack teams knowing that more often than not Harry Kane, Son and Erikson are going to get you a hatful, and you have Lloris, Alberweild(sp?) Vertonghen, Tripper etc needing less protection than lesser backlines. If only we had evidence of a manager that embarrassed himself when he played that style against teams with better players playing the same style Edited May 23, 2020 by TheGingerQuiff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polarboy 2311 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said: It's easy to attack teams knowing that more often than not Harry Kane, Son and Erikson are going to get you a hatful, and you have Lloris, Alberweild(sp?) Vertonghen, Tripper etc needing less protection than lesser backlines. If only we had evidence of a manager that embarrassed himself when he played that style against teams with better players playing the same style If only we had evidence of Pochettino building a bottom six side like Southampton up from the bottom, oh wait we do. To say that Pochettino won't be able to initially cut his cloth accordingly, even though we'll be massively investing in players in any case, is the most asinine argument you've made yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polarboy 2311 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Oh, and I hope the implied comparison to McClaren was mostly a joke, otherwise you need professional help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strawb 4194 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Rafa Benitez’s Real Madrid scored 2.76 goals per game, including a 10 - 2 victory. Pragmatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30409 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Is there nothing to be said for giving Steve Bruce another chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Polarboy said: If only we had evidence of Pochettino building a bottom six side like Southampton up from the bottom, oh wait we do. To say that Pochettino won't be able to initially cut his cloth accordingly, even though we'll be massively investing in players in any case, is the most asinine argument you've made yet. Yet you're making the same one against Benitez. His Liverpool side was limited and his pragmatism turned them into European Champions. His Valencia side beat Barca and.Real Madrid to not one but two titles. His pragmatism has been present thriughout his career successes (note successes because he has actually won things) because his major achievements haven't been with the "top" clubs respectively. To say that Benitez couldn't cut his cloth when we'd be massively investing is the most asinine. The Real Madrid situation was different. Trying to instill discipline into a side already littered with superstars was always going to be difficult. Our players already know and have bought into his philosophy, and any top signings would be joining a group already on Rafa's wavelength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34954 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, ewerk said: Is there nothing to be said for giving Steve Bruce another chance? He’s certainly got the hunger 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom 14011 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 If it helps you lads the new manager will be replacing Steve Bruce. Rafa or Poch are both worlds away from Mr Bacon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30409 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Quote To start with the basics, Liverpool play a 4-3-3 formation, with the full-backs pushing forward all the time. It is a pretty common way of setting up a side, particularly by the top sides because of the quality their players tend to have in the middle of the pitch. Jurgen Klopp did the same at Borussia Dortmund, but in this case it’s enhanced with the intensity and the physicality Liverpool possess. This is what is meant when people talk about “gegenpressing”, when Klopp speaks about “heavy metal football”. It is about high intensity, pressing high up the pitch and sprinting; if a lot of players can do that at the same time then it’s very difficult for opposing teams to cope with. It means the full-backs overlapping, with a high defensive line, everybody playing in an aggressive manner. Rafa’s own words on the way Liverpool play. It’s obvious that you set your team up based on the resources at your disposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30409 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 Poch wasn’t in charge of transfers at Spurs though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, ewerk said: Poch wasn’t in charge of transfers at Spurs though. Even less of a man that I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 34954 Posted May 23, 2020 Share Posted May 23, 2020 More importantly, should we re-sign Mitrovic? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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