Psychology

[Alex 35083]

1 minute ago, wolfy said:

You're out of your comfort zone, you poor lamb.

Join in instead of kicking your little internet feet throwing pebbles at the ground with a bowed head and pet lip. 

I get the feeling you're shouting for the teacher.

This post says much more about you than it says about Gloom

[wolfy 12]

1 minute ago, Alex said:

This post says much more about you than it says about Gloom

This post says more about you than you realise. 

Edited September 19, 2017 by wolfy

[Alex 35083]

Just now, wolfy said:

Tis post says more about you than you realise. 

Toesn't

[The Fish 10857]

33 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Big fish, small pond then? I get that. Actually that would suggest your value of your own self comes from how others view you/how you measure up against others. So, while you're comparing yourself to them favourably, you feel little need to push on. And... maybe you remove yourself from situations where you won't be compared so favourably (due to lack of experience on talk shows or whatever) so that you can maintain the sense of self worth. I guess the problem there is that you never end up knowing your own limits if you keep the pond small.

 

Partly, and yes other people's opinions of me do colour my own self-image, as is true with all but the most self-confident/psychopathic of people. Putting myself out there isn't an issue, I share more on here than most(with people who outstrip me intellectually) and take part in discussions where my own limitations are laid bare. When starting in a new environment I don't hold off with my contribution. Nor do I avoid new experiences where my inexperience could be significant in comparison to others. I wouldn't have joined the pod, or tried stand-up, or whatever. It's where additional effort or commitment could lead to people thinking I've overreached, I think. I probably write a thousand or so words about football every week, but I wouldn't commit to a blog because I don't think it would be a "success". I've started and given up a couple of stories, because it's more comfortable to give up than it is to actually see it through (and it not be a success).

 

Wolfy is just upset that I think he's an idiot, who's transgressed the intellectual exercise of discussing alternatives to the consensus, into areas that are genuinely offensive and does so with an arrogance that he uses to try and mask his own limitations. when his limitations are challenged, laid bare, he lashes out and discards the very thing he claimed to be looking for; an exchange of ideas.

Edited September 19, 2017 by The Fish

[Rayvin 5223]

23 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

Partly, and yes other people's opinions of me do colour my own self-image, as is true with all but the most self-confident/psychopathic of people. Putting myself out there isn't an issue, I share more on here than most(with people who outstrip me intellectually) and take part in discussions where my own limitations are laid bare. When starting in a new environment I don't hold off with my contribution. Nor do I avoid new experiences where my inexperience could be significant in comparison to others. I wouldn't have joined the pod, or tried stand-up, or whatever. It's where additional effort or commitment could lead to people thinking I've overreached, I think. I probably write a thousand or so words about football every week, but I wouldn't commit to a blog because I don't think it would be a "success". I've started and given up a couple of stories, because it's more comfortable to give up than it is to actually see it through.

 

Wolfy is just upset that I think he's an idiot, who's transgressed the intellectual exercise of discussing alternatives to the consensus, into areas that are genuinely offensive and does so with an arrogance that he uses to try and mask his own limitations. when his limitations are challenged, laid bare, he lashes out and discards the very thing he claimed to be looking for; an exchange of ideas.

 

Thanks for continuing with the discussion. And now that you've noted other aspects here, I agree that the big fish small pond thing doesn't accurately cover it. Almost sounds like a motivational issue in general... not a fear, as such? Could be projecting here, so apologies if so, but you're pretty hard on yourself generally - or you seem to be. You've made a point here (and have done so before) of noting that you're 'intellectually inferior' to certain people on here, and I've seen you state that you know very little about certain issues before talking quite confidently on them. I don't believe you do think you're intellectually inferior to anyone for one thing, but may be trying to moderate yourself so as to appear more socially acceptable? Again, group approval, if so, and possibly learned behaviour from childhood.

 

I have a similar issue with apologies - I will apologise for things and moderate my views because it's a quicker way to group approval. I hate confrontation because I feel like it puts the surrounding community in the position of having to choose between sides, and fear being on the wrong side. I also worry that the person I'm on a confrontation with may not be able to handle my criticism of them, and that such a discussion may harm them personally as a result, which isn't an outcome I'd want. That might be pathological altriusm though, thinking about it.

 

To be honest, posting on here has helped me to work through the first point, which is one of the reasons I like this place. Good for exchange of ideas. With respect of Wolfy, I think it was all going fine for the first few posts, and I even thought that this was something we might all find some common ground on - but truth bombs never work IMO, and it's not like you can form a full picture of someone from just the parts of themselves that they're revealing in a handful of internet posts. 

 

EDIT - I just noticed I apologised in this post before my bit on apologies   FFS.

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Rayvin

[The Fish 10857]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

Thanks for continuing with the discussion. And now that you've noted other aspects here, I agree that the big fish small pond thing doesn't accurately cover it. Almost sounds like a motivational issue in general... not a fear, as such? Could be projecting here, so apologies if so, but you're pretty hard on yourself generally - or you seem to be. You've made a point here (and have done so before) of noting that you're 'intellectually inferior' to certain people on here, and I've seen you state that you know very little about certain issues before talking quite confidently on them. I don't believe you do think you're intellectually inferior to anyone for one thing, but may be trying to moderate yourself so as to appear more socially acceptable? Again, group approval, if so, and possibly learned behaviour from childhood.

 

I have a similar issue with apologies - I will apologise for things and moderate my views because it's a quicker way to group approval. I hate confrontation because I feel like it puts the surrounding community in the position of having to choose between sides, and fear being on the wrong side. I also worry that the person I'm on a confrontation with may not be able to handle my criticism of them, and that such a discussion may harm them personally as a result, which isn't an outcome I'd want. That might be pathological altriusm though, thinking about it.

 

To be honest, posting on here has helped me to work through the first point, which is one of the reasons I like this place. Good for exchange of ideas. With respect of Wolfy, I think it was all going fine for the first few posts, and I even thought that this was something we might all find some common ground on - but truth bombs never work IMO, and it's not like you can form a full picture of someone from just the parts of themselves that they're revealing in a handful of internet posts. 

 

EDIT - I just noticed I apologised in this post before my bit on apologies   FFS.

 

 

I was billy big bollocks before and during University on here, the older members will attest to this. Came on here telling older, wiser heads that they were talking unmitigated horseshit, but over the years I've mellowed and realised by comparison, I know fuck all about politics, say. This came about because as we were talking, their breadth and depth of insight eclipsed mine, which was based more on gut feel and opinions cobbled together from various surface level sources, rather than from an in depth reading around a subject. Too often I'd state an opinion as fact and within 2-3 posts I was made to look the arsehole I was being.

 

By group approval I guess I do want to be a valuable member of a group, but I don't really care if my opinions are at odds with others. I don't bow to people's opinions on subjects upon which I consider myself well-versed. Football, for example, it's rare that I'll brook any bullshit from you lot about that  and I'll happily write reams of text opining on the subject. But I won't put that to a blog, nor submit it to a fanzine. I'm far more likely to be criticised (or at least be aware of it) on here than I am if the same opinions were in The Mag or some betting-supported blogsite.

 

The only reason I can think I don't do that is because I'm worried about it being unsuccessful. 

 

fwiw I might seem hard on myself, but I've a very healthy sense of self worth. I'm a fucking top bloke and we all know it.  Ask the few on here who've spent any real time with me offline and they'll attest to my abiding self confidence. It's just more acceptable to speak of your own faults, rather than your strengths, it's also a more common topic. If you started a thread on "What are you fucking mint at?" Any legit self-praise would be drowned in a sea of braggadocio and bravado, and self deprecating humour.

 

I'm more diplomatic in real life, because offline life is built on more important relationships. I can't imagine you behaving more diplomatically than you do here. Not only in your own interactions, but you do try to act as a mediator between the more demonstrative members. When compromising offline, do you do it to such an extent you come away from an encounter feeling angry or frustrated at yourself? That if you had been more assertive, combative, you both would have come away with a better outcome?

 

[adios 717]

Was quite looking forward to this thread when I saw it'd reached 4 pages then realised it had been wolfy'd.

 

7 hours ago, ewerk said:

I'm immune to pyschoanalysis.

Is this a reference to the quote about the Irish, often misattributed to Freud?

 

7 hours ago, The Fish said:

which leads me to not trying very hard at things, or giving up if I don't receive an almost impossible amount of praise/encouragement.

Comedy Dave doesn't need much praise/encouragement.

 

 

 

[Dr Gloom 21924]

fish is like jekyll and hyde tbh: you've got comedy dave, bravado dave, podcast dave, english tapas dave etc etc

[adios 717]

Done MB a few times.  Get INTJ the majority of the time but depending on mood it can be very different.

 

I also think it's probably bollocks, or at the very least needs to be broken down further by a factor of four.

[adios 717]

5 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

fish is like jekyll and hyde tbh: you've got comedy dave, bravado dave, podcast dave, english tapas dave etc etc

Jekyll and Hyde and Hyde and Hyde and Hyde and Hyde.

[Rayvin 5223]

13 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

I was billy big bollocks before and during University on here, the older members will attest to this. Came on here telling older, wiser heads that they were talking unmitigated horseshit, but over the years I've mellowed and realised by comparison, I know fuck all about politics, say. This came about because as we were talking, their breadth and depth of insight eclipsed mine, which was based more on gut feel and opinions cobbled together from various surface level sources, rather than from an in depth reading around a subject. Too often I'd state an opinion as fact and within 2-3 posts I was made to look the arsehole I was being.

 

By group approval I guess I do want to be a valuable member of a group, but I don't really care if my opinions are at odds with others. I don't bow to people's opinions on subjects upon which I consider myself well-versed. Football, for example, it's rare that I'll brook any bullshit from you lot about that  and I'll happily write reams of text opining on the subject. But I won't put that to a blog, nor submit it to a fanzine. I'm far more likely to be criticised (or at least be aware of it) on here than I am if the same opinions were in The Mag or some betting-supported blogsite.

 

The only reason I can think I don't do that is because I'm worried about it being unsuccessful. 

 

fwiw I might seem hard on myself, but I've a very healthy sense of self worth. I'm a fucking top bloke and we all know it.  Ask the few on here who've spent any real time with me offline and they'll attest to my abiding self confidence. It's just more acceptable to speak of your own faults, rather than your strengths, it's also a more common topic. If you started a thread on "What are you fucking mint at?" Any legit self-praise would be drowned in a sea of braggadocio and bravado, and self deprecating humour.

 

I'm more diplomatic in real life, because offline life is built on more important relationships. I can't imagine you behaving more diplomatically than you do here. Not only in your own interactions, but you do try to act as a mediator between the more demonstrative members. When compromising offline, do you do it to such an extent you come away from an encounter feeling angry or frustrated at yourself? That if you had been more assertive, combative, you both would have come away with a better outcome?

 

 

The highlighted bit there is a good point tbh, I was thinking earlier that I should have opened this up to positive psychological traits as well. That's open for discussion too IMO. With respect of your own self assessment here, I'll hold my hands up and admit I was probably projecting after all then. I do wonder what it is about not being successful that gets to you though.

 

I'm pretty consistent on diplomacy throughout life, you're right there. I don't generally come away wishing I'd been more assertive unless I'm buying something and feel I've been ripped off by not forcing the issue. In interpersonal matters, much as I hate to say it, I'm a bit of a wordsmith - I can usually obtain my desired outcome whilst maintaining diplomacy. Quite a feminine trait I understand (though it could just be my mother), and I have mixed feelings about it. I suspect not having a present male role model for my formative years made me like this. Ultimately though I'm half proud of the fact I'm able to do it, and half ashamed that I'm hiding my true feelings but still getting my outcomes. Feels dishonest but I've learned that it works.

[Rayvin 5223]

13 minutes ago, adios said:

Done MB a few times.  Get INTJ the majority of the time but depending on mood it can be very different.

 

I also think it's probably bollocks, or at the very least needs to be broken down further by a factor of four.

 

I don't disagree, but it seems to help people come to terms with themselves to a degree. Learning the first time around that I was an Extrovert had quite an impact on me actually, and forced me to confront some aspects of my personality that I didn't think existed.

[adios 717]

6 hours ago, Andrew said:

If anyone fancies it, I'd be fascinated to know about the board make-up on Meyers Briggs https://www.16personalities.com

 

For the record I come out as an ENTP from that.

1

Quote

Try not to leave any “neutral” answers.

 

Anyone else find themselves increasingly like Keith with these tests?

[ewerk 30616]

30 minutes ago, adios said:

 

Is this a reference to the quote about the Irish, often misattributed to Freud?

 

 

 

Aye. I like to get my wisdom from Leonardo Di Caprio movies.

[adios 717]

7 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I don't disagree, but it seems to help people come to terms with themselves to a degree. Learning the first time around that I was an Extrovert had quite an impact on me actually, and forced me to confront some aspects of my personality that I didn't think existed.

I find myself swaying between "pseudo-sciences answer to horoscopes" and "there might be something in it".

 

On the latter end, anything that helps people to introspect can't be bad, but on the former, it might just reinforce their beliefs about themselves.  Like all those fucking tests on Facebook that people do to prove to themselves/others how awesome they are.

 

Don't know.

[Alex 35083]

28 minutes ago, adios said:

Done MB a few times.  Get INTJ the majority of the time but depending on mood it can be very different.

 

I also think it's probably bollocks, or at the very least needs to be broken down further by a factor of four.

Thought it had me spot on for some stuff but didn't really recognise myself in some of the categories. I think, like you, if I answered the questions 4 or 5 times it would probably be at least slightly different every time.

[Kid Dynamite 7030]

Did Meyers Briggs Test through a leadership course at work a couple of years ago. Came out with ENTP

[strawb 4259]

ENTJ-A apparently 

[Park Life 71]

9/10 under pressure I go with the inner voice.

 

Most people in situations public/social or otherwise don't really know what's going on and are worrying about themselves and looking for the usual cues anyway - you can basically get away with a lot. I find there is a lot of weird pressure from my friends about being myself...I'm not here to perform fuckers! My mind wanders when others are talking, it's quite pleasant really. It amuses me that people set up stories like they just cured cancer and it turns out the cat got lost or summat....

Edited September 19, 2017 by Park Life

[The Fish 10857]

7 hours ago, Park Life said:

9/10 under pressure I go with the inner voice.

 

Most people in situations public/social or otherwise don't really know what's going on and are worrying about themselves and looking for the usual cues anyway - you can basically get away with a lot. I find there is a lot of weird pressure from my friends about being myself...I'm not here to perform fuckers! My mind wanders when others are talking, it's quite pleasant really. It amuses me that people set up stories like they just cured cancer and it turns out the cat got lost or summat....

 

I enjoy the awkwardness of a shit story. As Janine from reception is droning on about the conversation she had with the postman "So I turns to him and says", all I'm doing is watching the faces of the other people in the audience. Watching to see if their mask is dropping, if they're off doing something else in their head or if they're genuinely still listening.

 

 

[The Fish 10857]

14 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

The highlighted bit there is a good point tbh, I was thinking earlier that I should have opened this up to positive psychological traits as well. That's open for discussion too IMO. With respect of your own self assessment here, I'll hold my hands up and admit I was probably projecting after all then. I do wonder what it is about not being successful that gets to you though.

 

I'm pretty consistent on diplomacy throughout life, you're right there. I don't generally come away wishing I'd been more assertive unless I'm buying something and feel I've been ripped off by not forcing the issue. In interpersonal matters, much as I hate to say it, I'm a bit of a wordsmith - I can usually obtain my desired outcome whilst maintaining diplomacy. Quite a feminine trait I understand (though it could just be my mother), and I have mixed feelings about it. I suspect not having a present male role model for my formative years made me like this. Ultimately though I'm half proud of the fact I'm able to do it, and half ashamed that I'm hiding my true feelings but still getting my outcomes. Feels dishonest but I've learned that it works.

 

Perhaps it's a fear of "what's next". Maybe my successes aren't going to be successful "enough". Sure you wrote a blog, but nobody reads it, only 100 people read it, only a thousand people read it. It's not earning you any money, it earns you fuck all etc. Dunno, just a thought that came to me over my breakfast.

[wolfy 12]

A lot of people hide their true self behind a mask/shield.

The issue with doing that is, it becomes a strain throughout life trying to keep up that stance.

 

Many times with people it depends on the company they're in as to how they act.

The operative word is ACT.

 

People are almost coaxed into having to play different roles, more by expectation than a want.

The podium speech giver whose job it is to address issues or convey messages, will take on that persona of a confident leader like stance and will be looked upon by almost all, as exactly that.

However, his home life may be the opposite to what people would expect.

He/she could be henpecked or rooster pecked, depending on...well...whatever.

He/she could be a loner who goes home and drowns in a bottle of whatever alcohol he feels he needs to destress.

He/she could come home and act all goofy with the kids....all after being the confident company giant that others fear/respect/want to emulate.

 

On the flip side he/she could be the timid shy type that just gets on with their job and be the back seat person who sees almost everything as too much of a challenge to even dare take one extra step forward, yet the very same person could be the lord of the one place they feel is their stronghold. Their home, where they can become the exact opposite of what they portray at their workplace.

They can become the nasty violent person, both physically and verbally and yet nobody would ever believe it if they were told.

 

Everybody tries to fit in but not all people have the ability to learn to actually do it all, because most people refuse to actually be themselves, yet will argue black and blue that this is what you get. This is them and they're not acting any differently.

 

The reality is entirely different.

The key issues to address in how to get along in life and conquer a lot of fears, is to be all of the things you try to hide in any one situation.

Basically show everyone the real you. the confident, the shy, the strong, the forceful, the lighter side, the fun side, all as a job lot.

Doing something like that will render any potential violent side as a non-issue, because there's nothing to hide or suppress.

 

Obviously that's more a perfect scenario but taking pointers for any of it goes a long way in training your mind to be YOU and not what others see you as in any stance you take, before each section of them

 

[Rayvin 5223]

2 hours ago, The Fish said:

 

Perhaps it's a fear of "what's next". Maybe my successes aren't going to be successful "enough". Sure you wrote a blog, but nobody reads it, only 100 people read it, only a thousand people read it. It's not earning you any money, it earns you fuck all etc. Dunno, just a thought that came to me over my breakfast.

 

So you need big goals and realistic chances of achieving them - small ones which could be seen as stepping stones turn you off certain plans? There's bound to be a term for thinking in this way. Aside from personal psychology, as a group I would argue we're trained to commodify time and measure our successes or failures based on the perception of whether or not what was achieved in a certain period of time was in keeping with the time spent. I think this is why so many non-gamers find it frustrating when their partners are playing video games - the gamer gets something out of it based on the time put in, but it has no tangible benefit outside of their own personal satisfaction, so it's hard for anyone external to consider it time well spent.

[Rayvin 5223]

42 minutes ago, wolfy said:

A lot of people hide their true self behind a mask/shield.

The issue with doing that is, it becomes a strain throughout life trying to keep up that stance.

 

Many times with people it depends on the company they're in as to how they act.

The operative word is ACT.

 

People are almost coaxed into having to play different roles, more by expectation than a want.

The podium speech giver whose job it is to address issues or convey messages, will take on that persona of a confident leader like stance and will be looked upon by almost all, as exactly that.

However, his home life may be the opposite to what people would expect.

He/she could be henpecked or rooster pecked, depending on...well...whatever.

He/she could be a loner who goes home and drowns in a bottle of whatever alcohol he feels he needs to destress.

He/she could come home and act all goofy with the kids....all after being the confident company giant that others fear/respect/want to emulate.

 

On the flip side he/she could be the timid shy type that just gets on with their job and be the back seat person who sees almost everything as too much of a challenge to even dare take one extra step forward, yet the very same person could be the lord of the one place they feel is their stronghold. Their home, where they can become the exact opposite of what they portray at their workplace.

They can become the nasty violent person, both physically and verbally and yet nobody would ever believe it if they were told.

 

Everybody tries to fit in but not all people have the ability to learn to actually do it all, because most people refuse to actually be themselves, yet will argue black and blue that this is what you get. This is them and they're not acting any differently.

 

The reality is entirely different.

The key issues to address in how to get along in life and conquer a lot of fears, is to be all of the things you try to hide in any one situation.

Basically show everyone the real you. the confident, the shy, the strong, the forceful, the lighter side, the fun side, all as a job lot.

Doing something like that will render any potential violent side as a non-issue, because there's nothing to hide or suppress.

 

Obviously that's more a perfect scenario but taking pointers for any of it goes a long way in training your mind to be YOU and not what others see you as in any stance you take, before each section of them

 

 

To make it brief, your position is that we're all much of a muchness, and that we simply morph our personalities to fit the requirement we need to meet, in the same way that liquids fill the container they're placed in? I guess I can agree with aspects of that, although obviously some people are more successful at certain things than others, due to their personality and outlooks.

 

I'm probably one of the people you refer to who actively avoids being himself, hence my overeagerness to please other people and to moderate myself. Have always considered it a survival mechanism (and I kind of think it is) because I lack the inherent trust in society that if I am to be 'myself', I will be accepted for it. Obviously it's not healthy though. I've been thinking more recently that I should maybe start talking to someone about this stuff, as it bothers me to think there's a more well rounded version of myself potentially available to me that I'm simply refusing to allow the existence of by failing to take action over it.

[The Fish 10857]

18 hours ago, adios said:

Comedy Dave doesn't need much praise/encouragement.

 

He doesn't for normal life, but he needs unrealistic praise/encouragement to actually complete a difficult/challenging task.

 

18 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

fish is like jekyll and hyde tbh: you've got comedy dave, bravado dave, podcast dave, english tapas dave etc etc

 

That's another facet to me. I am versions of myself depending on the situation. Only really my whole self when I'm alone, and I hate being alone. Hence the amount of time I spend on message boards.