Renton 20421 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, NJS said: Yes, both relative failures but I don't think Kinnock is met with the same invective. He's seen as bridging the gap between the Thatcher landslides and labour being able to win with Blair which I think is fair. Brexit has changed the picture massively, given that result and how it's affected the voters, I can't see any position labour could have taken to make a huge difference. It also has to be said that Scottish devolution was a massive mistake from a UK Labour Party pov given the number of seats lost due to failure to come to terms with the snp. It was always going to be difficult, I agree. Personally I would have taken the position if pursuing a very soft Brexit with a second referendum. I honestly don't even know what Corbyns position on it is. His historical stance on the EU will always be unforgivable in my eyes though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5127 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Just now, Renton said: Not sure the PLP misread the public mood. Just nobody anticipated just how inept May was, which for me makes thus even more frustrating. Corbyn isn't a leader. It's as simple as that. If he had had any decency, he would have resigned when he lost the PLP. By doggedly clinging on, he has done nobody any favours. Yes, the manifesto had some good things in it but tell me, what is the point when it won't be enacted? The point is he's reset where the discussion is. Something I hoped he would do 2 years ago when I voted him in. That manifesto never would have come to pass without him, and that's the area in which the PLP have misunderstood what's going on. You've said yourself that globalisation was/is the big challenge of our time - when on earth have the PLP given any indication that they have even the faintest awareness of the challenges people are facing there? Their failure to understand what people wanted led to Corbyn. If Yvette Cooper had been putting forward half of what Corbyn was, I could have voted for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15115 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 The Major/Kinnock comparison is an interesting one - if May is returned with a relatively small majority and starts being undermined by rebellions and by-election losses like Major, things could get interesting. Although maybe it's more a John Smith scenario and Corbyn needs to drop dead in 2019 or so and make way for something more electable (but, and here's the difference I suppose, retaining the broad strokes of the properly Labour manifesto we're seeing this time round, since that seems to be what's enthusing people). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 7 minutes ago, Renton said: It was always going to be difficult, I agree. Personally I would have taken the position if pursuing a very soft Brexit with a second referendum. I honestly don't even know what Corbyns position on it is. His historical stance on the EU will always be unforgivable in my eyes though. A second referendum would have alienated 52% of the population and undermined democracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 The more Blair and the PLP undermined Corby the stronger he became. By happenstance or the subconscious the soft right of the Party have bungled it. People want to believe in Corby more now than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 20421 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said: A second referendum would have alienated 52% of the population and undermined democracy Don't see how it is undemocratic when it was an advisory referendum, not mandatory, the majority was so slim, and the destination not determined. Why are Brexiters afraid of a second referendum anyway? If people still want Brexit, they can vote for it. Maybe this time though the lies can be legally curtailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Just now, Renton said: Don't see how it is undemocratic when it was an advisory referendum, not mandatory, the majority was so slim, and the destination not determined. Why are Brexiters afraid of a second referendum anyway? If people still want Brexit, they can vote for it. Maybe this time though the lies can be legally curtailed. There won't be a Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 20421 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 1 minute ago, Park Life said: The more Blair and the PLP undermined Corby the stronger he became. By happenstance or the subconscious the soft right of the Party have bungled it. People want to believe in Corby more now than ever. And yet... He will still likely poll the worst result for Labour since Foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15115 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 1 minute ago, Renton said: Maybe this time though the lies can be legally curtailed. I'm sure the Murdoch/Dacre press will respect the rule of law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) 1 minute ago, Renton said: And yet... He will still likely poll the worst result for Labour since Foot. I don't think so. I too wanted him removed a couple of months ago but I hadn't seen the full picture. Blair and Corby are both Fabians. Blair couldn't have helped Corby any more than attack him. Edited June 7, 2017 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 29491 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Meenzer said: I'm sure the Murdoch/Dacre press will respect the rule of law. Death to the saboteurs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21302 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 29 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: Whatever happens tomorrow I think it's pretty hard to knock the Labour campaign, particularly given the backdrop. He's performed well personally and produced a stand out manifesto. Imagine how much better it could have been if he had some of the deserters backing him. (I.e. Hillary Ben instead of Abbott etc). In comparison, the Tory campaign has been a disaster from start to finish. Hard to disagree with that. Whatever the result, May's future as Tory leader has to be in question. my dad has been banging on about the traitors in the plp for months but you have to wonder what position the party might be in now if they'd backed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15115 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Corbyn needed to meet them halfway and understand that his election was as a figurehead of a particular movement rather than a tacit endorsement of everything he stands for. Form a left-leaning coalition within Labour, if you like, but still with Corbynomics at its heart. That is and remains his mistake. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 20421 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Members of the PLP know Corbyn better than any of us. Maybe they had good reason not to back him. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 20421 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Just now, Meenzer said: Corbyn needed to meet them halfway and understand that his election was as a figurehead of a movement rather than an endorsement of everything he stands for. Form a left-leaning coalition within Labour, if you like, but still with Corbynomics at its heart. That is and remains his mistake. Spot on. Plus he smells of wee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 12 minutes ago, Renton said: Don't see how it is undemocratic when it was an advisory referendum, not mandatory, the majority was so slim, and the destination not determined. Why are Brexiters afraid of a second referendum anyway? If people still want Brexit, they can vote for it. Maybe this time though the lies can be legally curtailed. The 52% would cry stitch-up, and so would I if I was on that side.of the vote. Eu don't want brexit, most of government don't... where's the incentive to offer anything other than the shittiest of shittest deals in a second referendum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4256 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, Renton said: Members of the PLP know Corbyn better than any of us. Maybe they had good reason not to back him. Just a thought. That assumes they're all fine upstanding socialists though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21302 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 yup. if he had a pragmatic bone in his body, labour might have stood a chance here. i blame his lack of leadership and the labour revolt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Meenzer said: Corbyn needed to meet them halfway and understand that his election was as a figurehead of a particular movement rather than a tacit endorsement of everything he stands for. Form a left-leaning coalition within Labour, if you like, but still with Corbynomics at its heart. That is and remains his mistake. It's what we discussed a month ago and I agreed with it at the time. But what if they needed someone outside of the Labour establishment? I mean they tried all that shit with bacon man. /Rayvin The party machinery has access to the meta-data after all. Edited June 7, 2017 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 29491 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 8 minutes ago, TheGingerQuiff said: The 52% would cry stitch-up, and so would I if I was on that side.of the vote. Eu don't want brexit, most of government don't... where's the incentive to offer anything other than the shittiest of shittest deals in a second referendum? The 52% are thick as pigshit and shouldn't be allowed to make this sort of decision. Run it again now that reasonable minded people know that Leave has a serious chance and you'll see the previously apathetic turning out to vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Just now, ewerk said: The 52% are thick as pigshit and shouldn't be allowed to make this sort of decision. Run it again now that reasonable minded people know that Leave has a serious chance and you'll see the previously apathetic turning out to vote. I don't disagree that that's what would happen. There'd be hell on is what I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 16523 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Renton said: Is this fuck a successful election campaign! Corbyn is still likely to get a smaller share of the votes than Ed Miliband. Whilst being up against Theresa fucking May! When you set the bar as low as Corbyn has, it's easy to convince yourself you have done well. He hasn't. He's an unmitigated disaster. (Probably, we'll see and I'm happy to eat humble pie if I'm wrong). I think ithe opposite may be the case. JC's half decent showing is winning people over down here in true blue England. Nowhere near enough like, but I think there's a chance Labour's share of the vote will go up over the whole country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 6822 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 26 minutes ago, Meenzer said: Corbyn needed to meet them halfway and understand that his election was as a figurehead of a particular movement rather than a tacit endorsement of everything he stands for. Form a left-leaning coalition within Labour, if you like, but still with Corbynomics at its heart. That is and remains his mistake. His manifesto is proof of that though. Renewing trident etc. goes against everything he stands for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 8 minutes ago, PaddockLad said: I think ithe opposite may be the case. JC's half decent showing is winning people over down here in true blue England. Nowhere near enough like, but I think there's a chance Labour's share of the vote will go up over the whole country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15115 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 9 minutes ago, Kid Dynamite said: His manifesto is proof of that though. Renewing trident etc. goes against everything he stands for And if he'd tried that from the start...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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