Alex 35077 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 The EU is so difficult to deal with that the Tories are going to get a cracking deal. He's on the fucking wind up or he's thick. Or it's a bit of both. Back and right back on form anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30598 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Just now, Christmas Tree said: The numerous re-runs on referendums they didn't win, their dealings with Greece, their comments following Brexit of wanting to punish the U.K. Macron even called it a crime. These are hard nosed sharks that (imo) would devour Corbyn. Thank god we have someone with your towering intellect on here to set us straight on these issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35077 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: The numerous re-runs on referendums they didn't win, their dealings with Greece, their comments following Brexit of wanting to punish the U.K. Macron even called it a crime. These are hard nosed sharks that (imo) would devour Corbyn. I.e. the EU doing everything in its power to maintain the status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Rayvin said: Corbyn hasn't been successfully devoured by the entire PLP, the media, or the Tories. He's stuck at it through it all, and has resolutely stood fast to his principles. I don't think the EU would be able to intimidate him whatsoever. The risk, if there is one, is that he commits the same error as May and fails to see the good deal in pursuit of the holy grail deal. Or you could say he hasn't managed to convince / negotiate successfully with his own MP's. Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you over your viewpoint as that's pretty fruitless. Just giving you my viewpoint as the sort of voter he has to win over if he wants the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30598 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Just now, Christmas Tree said: Or you could say he hasn't managed to convince / negotiate successfully with his own MP's. Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you over your viewpoint as that's pretty fruitless. Just giving you my viewpoint as the sort of voter he has to win over if he wants the job. But he's never going to win you over, is he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 4 hours ago, Park Life said: Said it would close weeks ago. I've been on #teamparky since the announcement of the snap election. If Labour manages to form some sort of coalition, I'll be in full-on Illuminati mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, Alex said: I.e. the EU doing everything in its power to maintain the status quo. But the status quo has gone. It's now nothing else than a massive negotiation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, ewerk said: But he's never going to win you over, is he? I think I've been pretty clear that if they could get their Brexit act together they probably would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5219 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Christmas Tree said: Or you could say he hasn't managed to convince / negotiate successfully with his own MP's. Anyway, I'm not going to argue with you over your viewpoint as that's pretty fruitless. Just giving you my viewpoint as the sort of voter he has to win over if he wants the job. I like to think I'm open to logical conclusions to be honest. I don't see what it is that you do with the Tories being 'competent' but I've readily admitted in here on many occasions that Corbyn has been a disappointment in terms of how he has managed the party. The thing is, Labour are going to deliver Brexit if they're elected. So are the Tories. Neither has any real handle on what a 'good' deal looks like, as this will be set by the EU, but Labour are the only ones in a position to go back to people and say 'look, this is a shit deal, do you really want us to go through with it'. The Tories can't do that, which means they give us assurance of the worst possible deal. They absolutely have to see it through otherwise they'll look utterly fucking stupid. Their entire political life now hangs on this. There's actually a part of me that suspects they wouldn't mind overmuch if Labour did win (except that Corbyn is so 'radical' that they now have a Sophie's Choice style event ahead of them). But either way - you are in effect saying that you consider the situation to be this: (Tory EU deal - Tory policies) > (Labour Policies - Labour EU Deal) Are you really sure about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35077 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Just now, Christmas Tree said: But the status quo has gone. It's now nothing else than a massive negotiation. They'll want us still in the EU in all but name. So they'll prefer the sort of conciliatory approach Corbyn favours. It's blindingly obvious tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35077 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, adios said: I've been on #teamparky since the announcement of the snap election. If Labour manages to form some sort of coalition, I'll be in full-on Illuminati mode. It's intriguing. I suppose that the problem with this theory is that 'they' would never have allowed this to happen in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30598 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: I think I've been pretty clear that if they could get their Brexit act together they probably would. No they wouldn't. You've said you disagree with their stance on Brexit but refuse to state exactly what it is you disagree with them on. You come on here pretending to be open minded and willing to consider Labour any yet despite an absolute shambles of a campaign from the Tories you're still certain to vote for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Alex said: It's intriguing. I suppose that the problem with this theory is that 'they' would never have allowed this to happen in the first place. I guess it would suggest 'they' are not all-powerful, just very powerful. Ronson's book of the same name is a great read btw. Edited May 22, 2017 by adios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, Rayvin said: I like to think I'm open to logical conclusions to be honest. I don't see what it is that you do with the Tories being 'competent' but I've readily admitted in here on many occasions that Corbyn has been a disappointment in terms of how he has managed the party. The thing is, Labour are going to deliver Brexit if they're elected. So are the Tories. Neither has any real handle on what a 'good' deal looks like, as this will be set by the EU, but Labour are the only ones in a position to go back to people and say 'look, this is a shit deal, do you really want us to go through with it'. The Tories can't do that, which means they give us assurance of the worst possible deal. They absolutely have to see it through otherwise they'll look utterly fucking stupid. Their entire political life now hangs on this. There's actually a part of me that suspects they wouldn't mind overmuch if Labour did win (except that Corbyn is so 'radical' that they now have a Sophie's Choice style event ahead of them). But either way - you are in effect saying that you consider the situation to be this: (Tory EU deal - Tory policies) > (Labour Policies - Labour EU Deal) Are you really sure about that? The Brexit deal is key to the economy / growth, which is key to being able to do all the nice stuff at home. It boils down to who you trust to get the best deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, Alex said: They'll want us still in the EU in all but name. So they'll prefer the sort of conciliatory approach Corbyn favours. It's blindingly obvious tbh. It may be to you, all I've heard is many EU leaders repeating "there will be no picking of cherrys". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5219 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 But if Brexit wasn't there, Labour's manifesto still would be. We've bet the farm on Brexit to fix a problem that someone like Corbyn (or with his policies at least) could have done. Which is really disappointing, especially given that the scenarios for Brexit benefitting us in the short to medium term are thin on the ground no matter who is supposed to be delivering it. It almost sounds as if you're saying that we need the Tories to see through Brexit because it was a stupid idea with loads of risk attached to it, and they will minimise the damage. Because if we thought Brexit was going to be a massive success, surely Labour's 'fix society' manifesto would be appealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4725 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, ewerk said: No they wouldn't. You've said you disagree with their stance on Brexit but refuse to state exactly what it is you disagree with them on. You come on here pretending to be open minded and willing to consider Labour any yet despite an absolute shambles of a campaign from the Tories you're still certain to vote for them. Jesus, I've mentioned numerous times over the last few pages what I don't like about Labours position on Brexit.... Corbyn as a negotiator Not willing to walk away No stated plan other than "we will do Brexit". Compare that to Mays mansion house speech etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35077 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, adios said: I guess it would suggest 'they' are not all-powerful, just very powerful. Ronson's book of the same name is a great read btw. Which is more realistic actually when I think about it. And which book is that? Edited May 22, 2017 by Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35077 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 13 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: It may be to you, all I've heard is many EU leaders repeating "there will be no picking of cherrys". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35077 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 This deal with the EU is so important that we're prepared to walk away from it no deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21915 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Walking away without a deal is such an appealing proposition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35077 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Just now, Dr Gloom said: Walking away without a deal is such an appealing proposition I think what you mean is that it's an example of excellent negotiating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21915 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 No, this isn't the cracking deal we thought it would be. Let's choose to plummet off a fuck off massive cliff like a pack of lemmings instead. That's a sure fire vote winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGingerQuiff 2412 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 I think the walking away without a deal stuff is the correct negotiating stance tbh. It'd leave them pretty vulnerable if they let on that they want any deal that they can get Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30598 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said: Jesus, I've mentioned numerous times over the last few pages what I don't like about Labours position on Brexit.... Corbyn as a negotiator Not willing to walk away No stated plan other than "we will do Brexit". Compare that to Mays mansion house speech etc. Corbyn wouldn't be negotiating. It would be Keir Starmer. Edit: And as was pointed out earlier, Corbyn has shown himself to be a stubborn, determined fucker. You mean not willing to press the self destruct button? Aye, that's a weakness. You've a nerve on the third point after months of 'Brexit means Brexit' and a 'Red white and blue Brexit'. May's Mansion House speech was a crock of shit. She wants free trade but not the single market? Good luck with that. She wants to guarantee EU citizens' rights and terrorism co-operation yet has point blank refused to do so when given the opportunity. Edited May 22, 2017 by ewerk Because fuck you, that's why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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