2017 GE 1

[Dr Gloom 21915]

Idiots. Corbyn's spokeswoman said "labour is fighting for every seat in this election."

 

Literally no clue

[ewerk 30595]

I understand that it would lead to the best overall result (in my eyes) but I do see electoral pacts as a distortion of democracy. If you're going to run a national campaign then run one. If you really want to keep the Tories out then amalgamate your parties.

[Dr Gloom 21915]

in the absence of strong labour leadership, coalition government is in the only hope for progressive politics. there is a majority of centre/left people in this country. it's foolish for a broad voter group of like-minded people to be so fragmented when they can work together to keep those bastards out, or at least reduce their majority, which looks set to be massive, and which won't be helped by them stealing votes from each other in marginal seats. 

[Rayvin 5217]

I understand that it would lead to the best overall result (in my eyes) but I do see electoral pacts as a distortion of democracy. If you're going to run a national campaign then run one. If you really want to keep the Tories out then amalgamate your parties.

 

Generally agree - it's a dishonest move. But ffs, we are where we are because we're the only ones playing by the rules anymore.  'Anything it takes' should be the mantra at this point.

 

Hopefully they're doing deals in the background.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Rayvin

[Andrew 4748]

If I were Mike Ashley or the CEO of a tax avoiding multinational corporation, I’d want to see a Tory victory.

 

Vote Corbyn

[NJS 4378]

The extremely wealthy Hartlepool considering voting Tory, apparently.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/19/hartlepool-ponders-a-change-after-half-a-century-voting-labour

 

Makes sense given how affluent the area is and how much they've benefited from 10 years of Tory rule, the useless fucking incompetents.

 

“I’m going to vote Tory purely because I voted to leave,” said Simpson, a council worker and former Labour voter. “The people in government should abide by the decision the British people made – we voted to leave. There’s some Labour MPs trying to block us leaving. If the vote had gone the other way would they have blocked that too?”

 

This is a potential source of optimism though, because it suggests that Corbyn potentially is taking the right approach in not being seen to 'oppose' Brexit. Maybe he can reach out to people like this fuckwit.

The level of brazen stupidity is sad - someone says ukip isn't trusted after Farage lied about the 350m not realising that was actually the cunts you now say you're going to vote for.

 

Morons.

[Meenzer 15518]

The idea that Labour would consider a coalition after years of flinging "FibDem" mud, honestly.

[Dr Gloom 21915]

they got into bed with the other side though. there are plenty of PLP who will feel closer to Farron than Corbyn

[Rayvin 5217]

The idea that Labour would consider a coalition after years of flinging "FibDem" mud, honestly.

 

Then, clearly, they aren't as bothered about securing the best possible future for the country as they claim to be.

[PaddockLad 17246]

Analytics type stuff and 'ting

 

http://opinium.co.uk/tory-landslide-mission-impossible/

[Rayvin 5217]

If the North votes Tory in any significant numbers then we're as dumb as they think we are.

 

Hopefully it's a bridge too far for them.

[Rayvin 5217]

Just been reading Corbyn's opening statements for the whole thing. I actually suspect he's right to try and open up fronts on a few different issues as the Tories are failing all over the place really, but he has a long slog ahead of him. He's also trying to capture the anti-establishment mood which I think will fall flat - principally because Brexit captured that. Without Brexit, I actually think this rhetoric would have hammered the Tories.

[Happy Face 29]

I thought his anti-establishment speil and talking about the "riggesd system" was good.  No-one that voted brexit as an anti-establishment protest thinks it fixes any of the ills with wealth inequality, criminal banks or 2 tier health and education.

 

Not keen whenever I see people en masse described as stupid for the way they vote.  Aren't you  (like me) a strong proponent that people don't vote based on intelligence, they vote based on personal circumstance.  While people have tagged Trump and Brexiters stupid racists, we've argued it it would be stupid for the uneducated jobless to keep voting centre left and and continue to be left behind.  They know a system that doesn't work for them and are delighted to rebel against it.

 

Similarly, as the Torys move immigrants to poorer (non Tory) areas and punish only the poor for their failing economic policies, it makes sense that the comfortable will be pushed the other way. "I'm alright Jack".  There's plenty in the North who are alright, less than there are down south, but plenty.  They seemed to have more empathy for their countrymen before though.  More and more they've been convinced that the poor are all immigrants now and don't deserve any compassion.

 

What's remarkable is Tory branding of a big society and being in it together even as they purposely drive the wedge deeper between the haves and have nots.

[Rayvin 5217]

I thought his anti-establishment speil and talking about the "riggesd system" was good.  No-one that voted brexit as an anti-establishment protest thinks it fixes any of the ills with wealth inequality, criminal banks or 2 tier health and education.

 

Not keen whenever I see people en masse described as stupid for the way they vote.  Aren't you  (like me) a strong proponent that people don't vote based on intelligence, they vote based on personal circumstance.  While people have tagged Trump and Brexiters stupid racists, we've argued it it would be stupid for the uneducated jobless to keep voting centre left and and continue to be left behind.  They know a system that doesn't work for them and are delighted to rebel against it.

 

Similarly, as the Torys move immigrants to poorer (non Tory) areas and punish only the poor for their failing economic policies, it makes sense that the comfortable will be pushed the other way. "I'm alright Jack".  There's plenty in the North who are alright, less than there are down south, but plenty.  They seemed to have more empathy for their countrymen before though.  More and more they've been convinced that the poor are all immigrants now and don't deserve any compassion.

 

What's remarkable is Tory branding of a big society and being in it together even as they purposely drive the wedge deeper between the haves and have nots.

 

Yes I know but I'm prone to bouts of occasional dysphoria on issues like this. I would also argue that while I understand the reasons for Brexit, many of those reasons go out of the window when you're talking about voting for the Tory party, which so many appear to be doing. I can't reconcile voting Tory with the same reasons people voted Brexit. I can reconcile it with irrational tribalism over the whole issue though. As I've said, the other parties aren't going to undo Brexit.

 

As for the anti-establishment aspect, how well or otherwise he put it over doesn't change the fact that Brexit stole his thunder IMO.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Rayvin

[NJS 4378]

I thought his anti-establishment speil and talking about the "riggesd system" was good. No-one that voted brexit as an anti-establishment protest thinks it fixes any of the ills with wealth inequality, criminal banks or 2 tier health and education.

 

Not keen whenever I see people en masse described as stupid for the way they vote. Aren't you (like me) a strong proponent that people don't vote based on intelligence, they vote based on personal circumstance. While people have tagged Trump and Brexiters stupid racists, we've argued it it would be stupid for the uneducated jobless to keep voting centre left and and continue to be left behind. They know a system that doesn't work for them and are delighted to rebel against it.

 

Similarly, as the Torys move immigrants to poorer (non Tory) areas and punish only the poor for their failing economic policies, it makes sense that the comfortable will be pushed the other way. "I'm alright Jack". There's plenty in the North who are alright, less than there are down south, but plenty. They seemed to have more empathy for their countrymen before though. More and more they've been convinced that the poor are all immigrants now and don't deserve any compassion.

 

What's remarkable is Tory branding of a big society and being in it together even as they purposely drive the wedge deeper between the haves and have nots.

I think I've said before that I think people should vote with the greater good in mind rather than via personal circumstances.

 

Maybe it's easier for me to say that as I'm doing okay but people who are struggling who think the tories will do anything for them are naive at best.

 

I guess my view falls down if people who are ok don't think helping those off is the greater good but I suppose that's where we're at now.

[Happy Face 29]

I think I've said before that I think people should vote with the greater good in mind rather than via personal circumstances.

 

Maybe it's easier for me to say that as I'm doing okay but people who are struggling who think the tories will do anything for them are naive at best.

 

I guess my view falls down if people who are ok don't think helping those off is the greater good but I suppose that's where we're at now.

 

I agree.  I most often vote against my own interests in elections in terms of tax and I pay union dues so I am collectively bargained for salary increases along with everyone else rather than rewarded for my own performance at work (which is stellar )

 

But, I've had plenty of arguments with local firends and family that vote Tory purely on what it does for their own bank balance.  They're usually well off like.  Can't fathom any tories on lower than average wages.... despite having 40 years to try and work out why that's true of my own dad.

[Rayvin 5217]

Progressive alliance perhaps overstated in usefulness:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/apr/20/tactical-voting-to-beat-the-tories-does-the-maths-equal-a-coalition

 

I feel that this ignores the implications of Brexit, but even so it's a grim read.

[Happy Face 29]

grimmest is the hahahahah bit, was it a student that wrote it?

 

Looks it...

 

https://twitter.com/mjrobbins

[Rayvin 5217]

Does it look wrong though?

[NJS 4378]

I agree. I most often vote against my own interests in elections in terms of tax and I pay union dues so I am collectively bargained for salary increases along with everyone else rather than rewarded for my own performance at work (which is stellar )

 

But, I've had plenty of arguments with local firends and family that vote Tory purely on what it does for their own bank balance. They're usually well off like. Can't fathom any tories on lower than average wages.... despite having 40 years to try and work out why that's true of my own dad.

There's this notion of tories supporting the "aspirational" rather than labour keeping people down. I think it's partially down to a misguided belief in grammar schools which is why May backs them.

 

The biggest step in "aspiration" in the 20th century was comprehensive education - introduced by labour - but try telling people that and they won't have it.

[Rayvin 5217]

There's this notion of tories supporting the "aspirational" rather than labour keeping people down. I think it's partially down to a misguided belief in grammar schools which is why May backs them.

 

The biggest step in "aspiration" in the 20th century was comprehensive education - introduced by labour - but try telling people that and they won't have it.

 

It genuinely has to be the case that either the Tories have a natural bias, something intrinsic in the human condition, that is on their side. Because it just doesn't make any sense why so many people like CT would vote for them otherwise. What does he gain from it? What single thing does anyone like CT gain from voting Tory?

 

I suppose if that were true they'd never lose mind. We need a compelling narrative more than anything, and I just can't think of any room to manoeuvre on this. Labour ceded austerity, and then they ceded Brexit. As such, there is no platform for them to actually attack from.

[Happy Face 29]

Does it look wrong though?

 

I'm sure his numbers are right for 2015.  An election where the left didn't co-ordinate candidtaes and no-one was voting with that tacit agreement.  An election where a referendum was on the table that isn't in 2017?  How many voted tory only to get a referendum?  How many voted tory despite the refendum who wanted to remain and feel the Tories shouldn't be allowed to push through hard brexit? 2 more years of not clearing the deficit, 2 more years of kicking the NHS while it's down.

 

It's interesting, but assumes EVERYONE who voted right will vote right and everyone who voted left will vote left, the nonsense of which is what keeps results swinging left and right every time.

[Rayvin 5217]

I'm sure his numbers are right for 2015.  An election where the left didn't co-ordinate candidtaes and no-one was voting with that tacit agreement.  An election where a referendum was on the table that isn't in 2017?  How many voted tory only to get a referendum?  How many voted tory despite the refendum who wanted to remain and feel the Tories shouldn't be allowed to push through hard brexit? 2 more years of not clearing the deficit, 2 more years of kicking the NHS while it's down.

 

It's interesting, but assumes EVERYONE who voted right will vote right and everyone who voted left will vote left, the nonsense of which is what keeps results swinging left and right every time.

 

True enough.

 

But the Remainer Tories won't vote Corbyn. Suppose they could go Lib Dem.

[NJS 4378]

It genuinely has to be the case that either the Tories have a natural bias, something intrinsic in the human condition, that is on their side. Because it just doesn't make any sense why so many people like CT would vote for them otherwise. What does he gain from it? What single thing does anyone like CT gain from voting Tory?

 

I suppose if that were true they'd never lose mind. We need a compelling narrative more than anything, and I just can't think of any room to manoeuvre on this. Labour ceded austerity, and then they ceded Brexit. As such, there is no platform for them to actually attack from.

Thatcher started to really promote the notion of individuality and part of that was destroying cohesive organisations like unions because she knew that the baser instincts would come to the fore to their advantage. Blair did nothing to counter this so we've now had nearly forty years of blatant what can you for for me attitude to life and politics.

[Rayvin 5217]

Thatcher started to really promote the notion of individuality and part of that was destroying cohesive organisations like unions because she knew that the baser instincts would come to the fore to their advantage. Blair did nothing to counter this so we've now had nearly forty years of blatant what can you for for me attitude to life and politics.

 

Well yes, I agree whole-heartedly (though I'd call that Neoliberalism).