Shearer or Beardsley?

[adios 717]

How is Shearer not world-class?  How many better strikers have we seen?

 

A Premiership scoring record that may never be beaten, in quite often a pretty ordinary side.

[Tooj 17]

He was obviously world class but I get what Renton says as in he wasn't at the same elite level as those he mentioned.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

How wasn't he?

[Tooj 17]

Because you could make an argument for all of Ronaldo, Maradona and Zidane being amongst the greatest to have ever played the game.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Only because they're the fashionable lots-of-flair choices and because of who they played for. Shearer was as effective as all of them in his prime if not more so. He could finish and strike a ball better than any of them. Flair always seems to be the deciding factor in these kinds of discussions though. 

[Renton 21741]

True but I would include how influential he was on the premiership, European, and international stage. The harsh truth is that, Blackburn championship aside, not very. I actually discount Pele as a true great for the same reason. Take Marradonna. He carried Argentina to two would cups in a way Pele never did, and Napoii too. Same with Zidane and France. Shearer won fuck all the majority of his career and his international apex was a home semifinal in the Euros.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Renton

[Meenzer 15599]

Take Marradonna. He carried Argentina to two would cups

 

Andy Brehme will have your guts for garters.

 

It's a little unfair on Pelé to write him down for having had some excellent teammates, he did make a bit of an impact on the World Cup in his own right after all. I think colour telly makes a big difference to way these things are remembered. Although when you watch the 1958 World Cup official film, it's true that much of the defending is terrible.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

True but I would include how influential he was on the premiership, European, and international stage. The harsh truth is that, Blackburn championship aside, not very. I actually discount Pele as a true great for the same reason. Take Marradonna. He carried Argentina to two would cups in a way Pele never did, and Napoii too. Same with Zidane and France. Shearer won fuck all the majority of his career and his international apex was a home semifinal in the Euros.

He won the golden boot that tournament so it's harsh to suggest he could have done anything more than he did. What he did at Blackburn was more impressive than what Zidane or Ronaldo did in sides littered with other superstars. He knocked back moves to the sort of clubs that they joined which is probably the reason he's under rated against them

[Tooj 17]

Andy Brehme will have your guts for garters.

 

It's a little unfair on Pelé to write him down for having had some excellent teammates, he did make a bit of an impact on the World Cup in his own right after all. I think colour telly makes a big difference to way these things are remembered. Although when you watch the 1958 World Cup official film, it's true that much of the defending is terrible.

Totally agree Meenzer. Also let's not forget Brazil had never won a World Cup before Pele played in one and it took then 24 years to win another one after he retired.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

If you don't think Shearer could win a game by himself you've got a short memory, and his finishing was better than Ronaldo's. The latter had lightening pace that he used to get himself into a position for an easier finish, Shearer could just ping them in from anywhere. I'd put mid 90s Shearer up there with anybody. You sound like you're ranking him in the Van nistelrooy category of just being a goalscorer and nothing else which is imo daft

Edited March 20, 2017 by TheGingerQuiff

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3923]

Didn't Sir Les call Shearer the best crosser he played with or something? I may have made that up.

[Alex 35162]

If you don't think Shearer could win a game by himself you've got a short memory, and his finishing was better than Ronaldo's. The latter had lightening pace that he used to get himself into a position for an easier finish, Shearer could just ping them in from anywhere. I'd put mid 90s Shearer up there with anybody. You sound like you're ranking him in the Van nistelrooy category of just being a goalscorer and nothing else which is imo daft

Ronaldo's finishing was fucking brilliant.

[Ayatollah Hermione 13909]

Speaking of Pele, that goal record needs a proper going over, mind. There's a list of all of them in his autobiography and I'm sure he includes a goal that he scored past his bairn in the garden

[The Fish 10900]

Thing is, flair is​ an important attribute of an elite player because it's another facet to their game. Yes, Shearer was technically superb and an athlete but he hadn't the flair of Ronaldo, Zidane etc.

 

Christiano Ronaldo is technically superb, an athlete and can do things with the football that would have occurred to Shearer to try during a game. That's why CR is World class and Shearer was probably the level just below that at his peak. Like Beckham or Gerrard or whomever.

[Alex 35162]

True but I would include how influential he was on the premiership, European, and international stage. The harsh truth is that, Blackburn championship aside, not very. I actually discount Pele as a true great for the same reason. Take Marradonna. He carried Argentina to two would cups in a way Pele never did, and Napoii too. Same with Zidane and France. Shearer won fuck all the majority of his career and his international apex was a home semifinal in the Euros.

Maradona was pretty anonymous in the only two games against top sides at the '86 World Cup. A 1-1 draw against Italy and the final against West Germany. He still got the equaliser in the former and played a great ball for the winner in the latter though. I do think it's slightly inaccurate to say he carried that Argentina side. He scored fantastic goals against Belgium and England though. But that side won the final without him having much of a say in it. I assume you mean two world cup finals as well, since he 'only' won the one. And I would disagree he carried that side to the 1990 final. Argentina were a cynical side who limped through the group stage of what was essentially a shit tournament which England fans understandably tend to view through rose-tinted geps. They were dead lucky against Brazil then won their next two games on penalties (Maradona missed his against Yugoslavia). The final was fucking awful too and he did fuck all in that game as well. Cannigia had as much, if not more, of an influence on that side's progress in the tournament.

The point about Zidane is similar too since he played in a brilliant team, albeit with him as its fulcrum. You could say the same about Pele. Discounting him is probably the funniest thing I'd read on here as well. That Santos side was the best in the world for a while and he had a much greater influence at world level at a far younger age than Maradona. Even when his legs had gone 12 years after winning the World Cup and being the best player (aged FUCKING 17), he was still the best player in the best side ever.

FWIW I'd put Maradona and Pele at a level above anyone else in the 20th century. With the likes of Best, Cruyff and Ronaldo in the chasing pack.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Thing is, flair is​ an important attribute of an elite player because it's another facet to their game. Yes, Shearer was technically superb and an athlete but he hadn't the flair of Ronaldo, Zidane etc.

 

Christiano Ronaldo is technically superb, an athlete and can do things with the football that would have occurred to Shearer to try during a game. That's why CR is World class and Shearer was probably the level just below that at his peak. Like Beckham or Gerrard or whomever.

Horse shit. He was a world record transfer and linked with world record transfers away after that. Flair means absolutely nothing if the end result is the same.

[Alex 35162]

Shearer was world class at his peak like.

[TheGingerQuiff 2412]

Ronaldo's finishing was fucking brilliant.

I'm not saying it wasn't but I don't think he could score the range of different goals that Shearer could

[Alex 35162]

I'm not saying it wasn't but I don't think he could score the range of different goals that Shearer could

They could both score goals that the other couldn't. Ronaldo was at a different level to Shearer though if you're talking about both at their very best.

[The Fish 10900]

Horse shit. He was a world record transfer and linked with world record transfers away after that. Flair means absolutely nothing if the end result is the same.

 

I disagree, but I'm going to forgive you because you used "Horse shit" rather than Bull shit.

[Alex 35162]

Do you think Beckenbauer was a flair player? Or Maldini? Or John Charles?

[The Fish 10900]

Do you think Beckenbauer was a flair player? Or Maldini? Or John Charles?

 

 

I don't, but I don't think flair is as big a part of a defender's game. Certainly not as much as for a forward, and it takes a special kind of forward to be considered truly world class without that added flair. Charles is a good comparison though, as Charlton said;

 

John Charles was a team unto himself. People often say to me, 'Who was the best player you ever saw?', and I answer that it was probably Eusébio, Di Stéfano, Cruyff, Pelé or our Bob (Bobby Charlton). But the most effective player I ever saw, the one that made the most difference to the performance of the whole team, was without question John Charles.

​

Certainly resonates with my opinion of Shearer.

 

If you were to list "World Class" forwards/attackers, I wonder how many would be on the effective side of the scales?

[Alex 35162]

I don't, but I don't think flair is as big a part of a defender's game. Certainly not as much as for a forward, and it takes a special kind of forward to be considered truly world class without that added flair. Charles is a good comparison though, as Charlton said;

 

John Charles was a team unto himself. People often say to me, 'Who was the best player you ever saw?', and I answer that it was probably Eusébio, Di Stéfano, Cruyff, Pelé or our Bob (Bobby Charlton). But the most effective player I ever saw, the one that made the most difference to the performance of the whole team, was without question John Charles.

​

Certainly resonates with my opinion of Shearer.

 

If you were to list "World Class" forwards/attackers, I wonder how many would be on the effective side of the scales?

I wouldn't really say Ruud Gullit was a 'flair' player but what a complete footballer he was. I take your point but I think it applies less to than you suggest to the 'world class' equation. Gerd Muller wasn't a flair player, Kevin Keegan wasn't, Paolo Rossi wasn't. Ian Rush wasn't. They were all forwards as well.

[Tom 14013]

Pele was shite.

[Park Life 71]

Keegler is still a cult hero in Hamburg. 1 in 3 strike rate for a 'deep' forward.