The Labour Party

[ewerk 31195]

But when you look at the job he's doing as Shadow Brexit Secretary he looks perfectly qualified to be Corbyn's successor.

[Rayvin 5295]

If the centrists think he'd be a good candidate then I hope he does run. Depressing as it is, we need to give the centrists their chance to try and fail before we can move forward.

[ewerk 31195]

Cheer up, you miserable fucker.

[Rayvin 5295]

No 

[Alex 35570]

If the centrists think he'd be a good candidate then I hope he does run. Depressing as it is, we need to give the centrists their chance to try and fail before we can move forward.

:lol:

[Dr Gloom 22143]

Hope this Kier Starmer doesn't run for leadership. Looks jittery and a touch naive. Piggy eyes as well. Voters don't like small eyes.

 

didn't stop dubya being elected twice

[Park Life 71]

He had those shiny coke eyes...Balances it out.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Park Life

[Andrew 4856]

If the centrists think he'd be a good candidate then I hope he does run. Depressing as it is, we need to give the centrists their chance to try and fail before we can move forward.

 

Aye its the centre thats having its chance and failing, the lefts doing great with its opportunity.

[Rayvin 5295]

Aye its the centre thats having its chance and failing, the lefts doing great with its opportunity.

 

 

Because the centrists did such a great job winning elections pre-Corbyn.

[Andrew 4856]

 

Because the centrists did such a great job winning elections pre-Corbyn.

 

They did win three in a row at one point.

 

How many have the further left won in your lifetime?

[Rayvin 5295]

I mostly want them to get in now so that when they fail to oust the Tories because the world has changed and they've been squeezed out as their message on Neoliberalism is the thing that's harming people, I'll get to say 'I told you so' on here

 

[Dr Gloom 22143]

If the centrists think he'd be a good candidate then I hope he does run. Depressing as it is, we need to give the centrists their chance to try and fail before we can move forward.

 

this doesn't have to happen. the end of centrist politics isn't an inevitability 

[Rayvin 5295]

They did win three in a row at one point.

 

How many have the further left won in your lifetime?

 

They did - and I supported them at the time. Unfortunately, it turned out that what I supported was a failing political ideology and has no place in the world now. Actually, serious question, have the centre moved on from that? If they have, maybe they are worth a shot. I didn't think they had any new ideas whatsoever, but I can't say that I've been paying much attention to them. Presumably they wouldn't be stupid enough to think that the same failed views that lost them the previous two elections are still the things to stick with? That'd be fucking crazy.

 

EDIT - Sorry, to answer your question, the left have won fuck all. But they're useless too - they're just not the ones who are causing right wing demagogues to rise throughout the Western world, so in my view are less dangerous.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Rayvin

[Rayvin 5295]

this doesn't have to happen. the end of centrist politics isn't an inevitability 

 

I agree - the centre is the answer, bizarrely, but not in the form it's currently taking. The centre at the moment is a patsy for established forces and the status quo. Which is why it's being eviscerated by the right.

[Dr Gloom 22143]

there's no place in the world for moderate, centre ground politics, just most of the continent and large swathes of the developed world. 

[Andrew 4856]

They did - and I supported them at the time. Unfortunately, it turned out that what I supported was a failing political ideology and has no place in the world now. Actually, serious question, have the centre moved on from that? If they have, maybe they are worth a shot. I didn't think they had any new ideas whatsoever, but I can't say that I've been paying much attention to them. Presumably they wouldn't be stupid enough to think that the same failed views that lost them the previous two elections are still the things to stick with? That'd be fucking crazy.

 

EDIT - Sorry, to answer your question, the left have won fuck all. But they're useless too - they're just not the ones who are causing right wing demagogues to rise throughout the Western world, so in my view are less dangerous.

 

Is that not essentially what all but the tories have done since the end of the war? Apart from when Labour went central.

[Rayvin 5295]

I don't follow... you're saying the Tories have changed their spots over time (I think they have, at least in their current iteration - albeit it's masking the same bullshit as ever), but no other political party has, aside from when Labour moved right? I mean, prior to Blair my understanding was that it had been a long time since Labour (or anyone else) was in power at all, so I'm not sure that this argument says a lot about how viable a strategy it is.

 

This conversation is making me wonder if what we're talking about as 'change' is a combination of specific contextual factors, and how well a political party can build a narrative around them. So for instance, we have widespread disillusionment with life, work, established voices, etc at the moment. The right successfully pointed the finger at the establishment (which it characterised as being part of the left, in which it was mostly lying) and immigrants. Thus you get Brexit and Trump. The Tories claimed Labour were too socially minded and financially incompetent in the wake of a financial crisis, so they won that battle. These are just narratives though, and neither actually addressed any of the issues at play. The Tories didn't change their core ideologies, and Trump hasn't changed his 'preserve the rich' viewpoint. So maybe the reality is that political parties move very little in their policies, and just strive to build narratives around things that happen in the wider world for opportunistic effect.

 

If that's the case, the centreground in Labour at the moment stands no more chance than the left, as they have absolutely no helpful narrative. They maybe could build one around Brexit, but it would have to be one that flat out opposes it to be picked up by the general populace, and that would mean effectively casting aside the working class - thus undermining the whole point of the party. As such, I suspect they'll have to more or less do what Corbyn is doing - and I just don't see why it would be a 'game changer'. Doubtless they'd do it more effectively, but I fail to see where the victory comes from.

[Andrew 4856]

I don't follow... you're saying the Tories have changed their spots over time (I think they have, at least in their current iteration - albeit it's masking the same bullshit as ever), but no other political party has, aside from when Labour moved right? I mean, prior to Blair my understanding was that it had been a long time since Labour (or anyone else) was in power at all, so I'm not sure that this argument says a lot about how viable a strategy it is.

 

This conversation is making me wonder if what we're talking about as 'change' is a combination of specific contextual factors, and how well a political party can build a narrative around them. So for instance, we have widespread disillusionment with life, work, established voices, etc at the moment. The right successfully pointed the finger at the establishment (which it characterised as being part of the left, in which it was mostly lying) and immigrants. Thus you get Brexit and Trump. The Tories claimed Labour were too socially minded and financially incompetent in the wake of a financial crisis, so they won that battle. These are just narratives though, and neither actually addressed any of the issues at play. The Tories didn't change their core ideologies, and Trump hasn't changed his 'preserve the rich' viewpoint. So maybe the reality is that political parties move very little in their policies, and just strive to build narratives around things that happen in the wider world for opportunistic effect.

 

If that's the case, the centreground in Labour at the moment stands no more chance than the left, as they have absolutely no helpful narrative. They maybe could build one around Brexit, but it would have to be one that flat out opposes it to be picked up by the general populace, and that would mean effectively casting aside the working class - thus undermining the whole point of the party. As such, I suspect they'll have to more or less do what Corbyn is doing - and I just don't see why it would be a 'game changer'. Doubtless they'd do it more effectively, but I fail to see where the victory comes from.

 

 

Maybe?

[Rayvin 5295]

That would be a sad truth though, as it means that the whole model is a lie and that none of us can change anything - that we're all held captive by established forces and structures that work towards their own ends irrespective of the needs of people in general, through the use of a constant set of narratives perpetuated and reinforced by a willing media.

 

In other words, everything I believe.

[Andrew 4856]

I'm trying to see how much you will write based on as short a post of mine as possible. We got a strong 72:1 then

[Rayvin 5295]

I figured, which is why I went for self gratification in that last one

[Park Life 71]

Labour need to put rejoing the EU in the manifesto.

[Alex 35570]

They need a new leader otherwise it's in the Lord Sutch category anyway

[Rayvin 5295]

Then they'd be finished as the party of the working class though.

 

Brexit has totally fucked Labour, Corbyn or otherwise - it's the backlash against the centre that was a decade in the making. The only thing that I find incredible about all of this, is that the Tories have SOMEHOW managed to retain an aura of credibility. That's on Corbyn, without shadow of a doubt. The Tories should have died as hard as Labour have, they're both responsible for this.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Rayvin

[Park Life 71]

Then they'd be finished as the party of the working class though.

 

Brexit has totally fucked Labour, Corbyn or otherwise - it's the backlash against the centre that was a decade in the making. The only thing that I find incredible about all of this, is that the Tories have SOMEHOW managed to retain an aura of credibility. That's on Corbyn, without shadow of a doubt. The Tories should have died as hard as Labour have, they're both responsible for this.

1/3 or the Working Claaas have gone over to Ukip anyway. The working class need leading not bowing down to....This is where the left are failing. I mean who the fuck fears the working class anywhere on the planet.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Park Life