Happy Face 29 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Self-flagellation and denial of all the good things Labour did in power is precisely why they'll never be in power again. You wouldn't catch the Tories rubbishing their own brand like that. "May's a slag!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15531 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 He didn't have a problem with Edwina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35083 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 BULLSHIT. I know, I mean what an absolute crock of shit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 The Corbynite wing in Labour appear to be on the offensive at the moment to shore up support behind him. Pointless IMO, the whole thing has run its course now. While the Guardian has opposed Corbyn for the whole time he's been leader (no idea about the Mirror) I don't think singling them out now makes any sense. The Guardian has wider issues in this field anyway, it's hard to know who they're actually speaking to or for these days. Corbyn needs to be ousted, the party needs to fall apart and something new needs to be built. This won't happen though, so we'll get corbyn being ousted and then more ineffectual centrist policies that only seem to overlap with what the Tories are saying, but which are somehow better because they're coming from Labour. The Miliband model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4386 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 It is possible to think the media have done a successful hatchet job on Corbyn and think he's shit as well. I also think there's a lot of truth in stating that the working classes' disaffection with labour did start under Blair - as I've said before, despite achievements in education and the NHS, there's still a perceived failure in providing decent jobs in areas Thatcher destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21924 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 i don't think any of that necessarily needs to happen. what labour needs is a charismatic leader who can unite the party - someone who will fight the tories on issues like austerity, the nhs and hard brexit, without alienating half of labour's core support. i don't know who that person is, but it definitely isn't the the drain and manhole cover enthusiast. it isn't beyond the realms of possibility to imagine milliband senior returning to save the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17275 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Look at the list of Labour MPs who voted in favour of austerity Gloom. That's where the err "talent" lies in the party. They're just red tories in the centre ground playing up to middle England. They'll never change anything because they don't want to be radical or innovative in case it harms their precious fuckin "careers". Could David Milliband cone back and win a general election? Conceivably yes, but it will change fuck all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meenzer 15531 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 One of the key differences, it seems to me, is that Tory voters seem happy to vote for a version of the party that isn't necessarily a perfect match for their own personal ideology. Which automatically gives them a massive advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 i don't think any of that necessarily needs to happen. what labour needs is a charismatic leader who can unite the party - someone who will fight the tories on issues like austerity, the nhs and hard brexit, without alienating half of labour's core support. i don't know who that person is, but it definitely isn't the the drain and manhole cover enthusiast. it isn't beyond the realms of possibility to imagine milliband senior returning to save the day. Miliband senior is a Blairite, and if memory serves, weren't the Blairites backing the Tories on austerity? This is kind of what I mean. Centrist, overlapping policies. The Tories have already captured the centreground as Corbyn pulled Labour to the left. There's no room for Labour to position themselves there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 One of the key differences, it seems to me, is that Tory voters seem happy to vote for a version of the party that isn't necessarily a perfect match for their own personal ideology. Which automatically gives them a massive advantage. Labour had that advantage in the two previous GEs and still lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35083 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Miliband senior is a Blairite, and if memory serves, weren't the Blairites backing the Tories on austerity? This is kind of what I mean. Centrist, overlapping policies. The Tories have already captured the centreground as Corbyn pulled Labour to the left. There's no room for Labour to position themselves there. I think you overestimate how much most people know about policies and underestimate the power of personality and being able to present your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Actually that's fair, because I would say that Labour's entire collapse was predicated upon losing the austerity argument to the Tories. So yes, narratives count for a great deal. I suppose I should rephrase and say that I don't see how they can make any compelling narrative by treading on the toes of the Tories. I don't think there's even a compelling case to be made over Brexit now, the moment has passed - and even if they could, they'd just be alienating their core support further. Corbyn is a hiccup in the general collapse of Labour, the terminal issues have been building for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21924 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 One of the key differences, it seems to me, is that Tory voters seem happy to vote for a version of the party that isn't necessarily a perfect match for their own personal ideology. Which automatically gives them a massive advantage. exactamundo. pragmatism in power is a lot more effective than principled opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21924 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 (edited) Miliband senior is a Blairite, and if memory serves, weren't the Blairites backing the Tories on austerity? This is kind of what I mean. Centrist, overlapping policies. The Tories have already captured the centreground as Corbyn pulled Labour to the left. There's no room for Labour to position themselves there. you only win elections if you can win over middle england. sorry to burst your idealistic bubble but it's a fact. corbyn is incapable of doing this. what you have to do is appeal to the centre then, once in power, move towards your traditional ideology. cameron and osborne were masters at this. they were all like "hey, look we care about big society and the environment", then once in power they slash the state to pieces. Edited March 1, 2017 by Dr Gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35083 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 (edited) Actually that's fair, because I would say that Labour's entire collapse was predicated upon losing the austerity argument to the Tories. So yes, narratives count for a great deal. I suppose I should rephrase and say that I don't see how they can make any compelling narrative by treading on the toes of the Tories. I don't think there's even a compelling case to be made over Brexit now, the moment has passed - and even if they could, they'd just be alienating their core support further. Corbyn is a hiccup in the general collapse of Labour, the terminal issues have been building for years. You honestly think the political landscape is that predictable atm? I wouldn't rule out Labour winning under a moderate centrist leader by any means. The current shit show is only getting away with it because of the lack of a credible opposition. And talk about Labour's core support and the working classes ignore the fact neither have really existed for about 20-30 years in the traditional sense. But that still didn't stop abour winning 3 elections on the bounce. Revolutionary change is unlikely to happen and, in lieu of that, even a 'Blairite' for want of better term, is a far better option imo. Edited March 1, 2017 by Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21924 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 blair wasn't that bad, if you look beyond iraq, which is ultimately his main legacy. certainly preferable to the twunts in office today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 you only win elections if you can win over middle england. sorry to burst your idealistic bubble but it's a fact. corbyn is incapable of doing this. what you have to do is appeal to the centre then, once in power, move towards your traditional ideology. cameron and osborne were masters at this. they were all like "hey, look we care about big society and the environment", then once in power they slash the state to pieces. I never said you could do it without middle England. But where we are at the moment is that left leaning Middle England can't win without the working class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35083 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 And there isn't a PM in the last 50 years who wouldn't have followed the US into Iraq, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35083 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 I never said you could do it without middle England. But where we are at the moment is that left leaning Middle England can't win without the working class. Who the fuck are the working class btw? It's been a redundant phrase in this country for decades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 You honestly think the political landscape is that predictable atm? I wouldn't rule out Labour winning under a moderate centrist leader by any means. The current shit show is only getting away with it because of the lack of a credible opposition. And talk about Labour's core support and the working classes ignore the fact neither have really existed for about 20-30 years in the traditional sense. But that still didn't stop abour winning 3 elections on the bounce. Revolutionary change is unlikely to happen and, in lieu of that, even a 'Blairite' for want of better term, is a far better option imo. Well, fair enough. We're inevitably going to get the chance for this to be proven so we'll see, ultimately. Not sure why you think it'll go any differently to the last two attempts though, especially considering the dearth of talent in the party. I actually think the political landscape has been extremely predictable after the wake up call of Brexit, certainly in terms of the headline issues. While I didn't think we'd get a 'Trump' in the US now, I said repeatedly that one was in the post. Similar things will happen through Europe unless the centreground actually starts paying attention - but all evidence is that it's doubling down. Which is fine if I'm wrong about what's happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21924 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 I never said you could do it without middle England. But where we are at the moment is that left leaning Middle England can't win without the working class. and those voters are more likely to follow someone like blair, who plays the patriotic royalist bullshit game, than a principled trot like corbyn, who won't bow on remembrance day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Who the fuck are the working class btw? It's been a redundant phrase in this country for decades Has it? I dunno. Everyone doing minimum wage jobs, zero hours contracts, unable to buy homes, unemployed, etc. Maybe we need a better word for it but the 'class' is still there. Everyone who voted for Brexit who isn't racist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5223 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 and those voters are more likely to follow someone like blair, who plays the patriotic royalist bullshit game, than a principled trot like corbyn, who won't bow on remembrance day. ...I really hope you're right. You aren't, but I hope you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21924 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 ...I really hope you're right. You aren't, but I hope you are. they're more likely to vote for corbyn you reckon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35083 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 ...I really hope you're right. You aren't, but I hope you are. Aye, he's only got the polls and history to back him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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