The Labour Party

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894]

I am unable to express my disregard for Corbyn, he is just a calamitous fuckwit.

[Rayvin 5223]

He'll be gone in 2018. Even the unions aren't that stupid. Which gives Labour a year to come up with an electable leader.

 

I still think he'll be gone by the end of this year.

 

Quite why you guys think someone else coming in is going to suddenly turn Labour's fortunes around is beyond me though. The rot was set in place way before Corbyn.

[ewerk 30616]

I don't think they could do much worse. Though I can't see anyone in the PLP likely to spark an immediate turnaround in fortunes.

[Rayvin 5223]

They probably can't do worse, agreed. But whatever they do get, I just can't see making any difference. Before Corbyn, I'd given up on them. I voted for Miliband's Labour but felt thoroughly disaffected doing so. That sentiment is what propelled Corbyn forward in the first place IMO. And it's still there.

 

I guess the positive from all this is that UKIP failed, again. Is that it for them now? Probably not but it looks like they're not going to be the force CT thought after all.

[ewerk 30616]

People like you don't win elections for parties.

[Rayvin 5223]

Absolutely true. Not arguing that. 

 

Tempted to argue that the only people who do, write for newspapers...

[Park Life 71]

To find your soul you must first break your spirit. /Parkenstein

[NJS 4386]

They probably can't do worse, agreed. But whatever they do get, I just can't see making any difference. Before Corbyn, I'd given up on them. I voted for Miliband's Labour but felt thoroughly disaffected doing so. That sentiment is what propelled Corbyn forward in the first place IMO. And it's still there.

 

I guess the positive from all this is that UKIP failed, again. Is that it for them now? Probably not but it looks like they're not going to be the force CT thought after all.

It's reduced the perceived threat of ukip cutting into labour heartlands but it shows they're a million miles from winning the seats needed to get into power.

[Renton 21627]

Not at all, everything is rosy.

 

 

Rayvin, you're wrong. Ed Miliband was the wrong choice of leader but Labour weren't broken under him. Corbyn has destroyed the party and it is entirely his fault. The fact he doesn't take responsibility for his dismal failure and immediately resign shows he as no moral standing at all imo. I could go on but there's no point.

[Rayvin 5223]

After 5 years of Tory austerity, Labour stood up and decided they could just wave it through. Given that it failed as a policy, and disproportionately affected the most vulnerable (who Labour claim to speak for), how can we consider that Miliband's Labour was anything other than done?

 

What about Labour's collapse in Scotland? That's not on Corbyn and it's cost them about 40 seats. They're unlikely to get those seats back any time soon either.

 

Labour retreated under Miliband, allowed the Tories to set the narrative, and were unfortunate enough to do so in a pivotal moment in British history. Miliband's retreat was what allowed Corbyn to happen. They were weak, have continued to be weak under Corbyn, and are now irrelevant.

[Alex 35083]

I would say they were a decent (as in good) leader away from winning last time round. Under Corbyn they're a million miles away. That's on him and his team.

[Renton 21627]

I'd agree with Alex although you make a fair point about the Scottish problem. Some tactical mistakes were made but I'm not sure how the resurgence of nationalism could have been stopped. A strong labour party could make inroads back into Scotland maybe. Corbyn can't. People find he represents them less than virtually any other politician other than Nuttal. Losing Copeland is just simply an incredible indictment on his leadership.

[ewerk 30616]

Theresa May went to Copeland and basically told them that they were going to cut maternity services at their hospital no matter what and they still voted in her candidate. That's just how ineffectual Labour are.

[Alex 35083]

Theresa May went to Copeland and basically told them that they were going to cut maternity services at their hospital no matter what and they still voted in her candidate. That's just how ineffectual Labour are.

I was about to say the same, more or less. An absolutely awful result given the both the current circumstances and history in that constituency.

[ewerk 30616]

Corbyn can't. People find he represents them less than virtually any other politician other than Nuttal. Losing Copeland is just simply an incredible indictment on his leadership.

 

If you put his policies to most people I don't think they would be totally repelled by them. It's more to do with his character and lack of gravitas.

[Rayvin 5223]

I'd agree with Alex although you make a fair point about the Scottish problem. Some tactical mistakes were made but I'm not sure how the resurgence of nationalism could have been stopped. A strong labour party could make inroads back into Scotland maybe. Corbyn can't. People find he represents them less than virtually any other politician other than Nuttal. Losing Copeland is just simply an incredible indictment on his leadership.

 

Well we're seeing a resurgence of nationalism in England now too, so surely your point works there? How would Labour under anyone stop that?

 

And I agree that Corbyn can't achieve anything now btw. I just disagree that Labour were headed anywhere else than oblivion even before he happened. Brexit has killed them as much as Corbyn. It's fractured the broad tent or whatever it was called. Remainers and Brexiters can't live under the same roof, and with Labour before, they had to.

[Alex 35083]

Corbyn takes some of the blame for Brexit too, he could've swayed a close vote with a bit more enthusiasm because, while he's inneffective in terms of being an opposition leader his support amongst young people could've made a difference but he fucked over his party and the country there too.

[Renton 21627]

Well we're seeing a resurgence of nationalism in England now too, so surely your point works there? How would Labour under anyone stop that?

 

And I agree that Corbyn can't achieve anything now btw. I just disagree that Labour were headed anywhere else than oblivion even before he happened. Brexit has killed them as much as Corbyn. It's fractured the broad tent or whatever it was called. Remainers and Brexiters can't live under the same roof, and with Labour before, they had to.

Brexit wouldn't have happened without Corbyn.

[Rayvin 5223]

Totally disagree with you guys on that. Brexit was in the post either way. It was the backlash against the Tories that Labour should have been under Miliband.

 

It was the working class who delivered Brexit. Why were they so disaffected?

Edited February 24, 2017 by Rayvin

[Rayvin 5223]

Also, whether he could have turned it or not, it still would have broken Labour. The working class would have felt betrayed, and they would have left the party in droves. As was already happening with 4million of them voting UKIP when Miliband was running it.

[NJS 4386]

Totally disagree with you guys on that. Brexit was in the post either way. It was the backlash against the Tories that Labour should have been under Miliband.

 

It was the working class who delivered Brexit. Why were they so disaffected?

Myth.

 

The majority of leave votes were in the south​ outside London.

[Rayvin 5223]

You're gonna have to expand there - I didn't say anything about their geographical location. Are you saying that the people in the south who voted for it in large numbers were all middle class?

[Renton 21627]

Totally disagree with you guys on that. Brexit was in the post either way. It was the backlash against the Tories that Labour should have been under Miliband.

 

It was the working class who delivered Brexit. Why were they so disaffected?

Well, you can disagree all you like but Corbyn's half hearted campaign probably did more harm than good for Remain. It wouldn't have taken much to swing the vote the other way and I'm sure a strong and committed leader could have done this, just by encouraging people to get out and vote if nothing else. As it was, Corbyn revealed himself as an absolute hypocrite and was a huge turn off.

 

Brexit had changed literally everything for the worst in this country, don't underplay it's significance.

[Renton 21627]

You're gonna have to expand there - I didn't say anything about their geographical location. Are you saying that the people in the south who voted for it in large numbers were all middle class?

Euroscepticism has always largely been a Tory middle class thing.

[NJS 4386]

You're gonna have to expand there - I didn't say anything about their geographical location. Are you saying that the people in the south who voted for it in large numbers were all middle class?

Not necessarily but they were are mainly tory voters which can include working class of course.

 

Chelmsford which is a safe tory seat where labour always finish third (even under Blair) voted about 60/40 out. There are areas which are working class but the majority of the town is people doing pretty well a lot of whom commute to London. There are a miniscule number of immigrants.

 

This wasn't an anti-establishment vote it was a pure flag waving tory middle class let's get back to the 50s old people's and other racists vote.

 

The south was full of similar results on greater actual numbers which Corbyn had absolutely fuck all to do with or could have influenced.

 

Of course you could argue getting more labour voters out to vote remain could have swung it but imo it wouldn't have in the face of mass misdirected racism.