President Biden

[Renton 21567]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

 

Why does him being a psychopath mean he can't join the EU? Thatcher was a psychopath and we were in the EU. Besides, we'd be inviting Russia, not Putin. Russia will outlast Putin.

 

I'm fine with my position on this. The fact that we've got to where we are shows a complete failure of Western strategy to contain Russia. You seem to talk as if there was nothing we could have done to stop this happening. That's ludicrous IMO. We have failed.

 

Well so far the huge expansion of Russia amounts to 3 small parts of Ukraine. He might take the whole of Ukraine, but I doubt it, because it will be an ongoing blood bath for him. We'll see. So I'd say in the 70 years since WW2 that was pretty good going, NATO has been a huge success. And personally, I'd be more keen on expelling the likes of Orban from the EU rather than inviting fellow dictators and psychopaths into it to take it out from its heart. I'm somewhat amazed by your attitude here tbh. 

[Rayvin 5217]

15 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Well so far the huge expansion of Russia amounts to 3 small parts of Ukraine. He might take the whole of Ukraine, but I doubt it, because it will be an ongoing blood bath for him. We'll see. So I'd say in the 70 years since WW2 that was pretty good going, NATO has been a huge success. And personally, I'd be more keen on expelling the likes of Orban from the EU rather than inviting fellow dictators and psychopaths into it to take it out from its heart. I'm somewhat amazed by your attitude here tbh. 

 

I can see that, but this place has a habit of pigeonholing me into categories I don't actually belong to a lot of the time  

 

I am, first and foremost, a believer in a wider ranging and internationalist vision of humanity represented by increasingly strong ties between cultures and peoples, and the eventual elimination of the nation state. A fantasy, frankly, but that's what I believe in. It's why our departure from the EU was such a deal breaker for me with Labour.

 

I find the idea that we'd abandon a sovereign country that is geographically inside of Europe, to a country that has enacted genocide upon them in living memory, to be utterly abhorrent. Stuff like this shows me that the West just isn't interested in what it purports to stand for. We may have been once, but now we have our tails between our legs, licking our wounds from our own right wing insurgencies and attempts to upset the international norms. As I've said many times, this stance is only going to embolden others. So it's not "we are sacrificing Ukraine", it's "we are sacrificing Western values and international norms throughout the world".

 

17 minutes ago, ewerk said:

Russia are in the G20, they're permanent members of the UN Security Council. They have been invited into the fold. The idea that mere diplomacy or being nicer to them would have prevented this is for the birds.

 

They secured the Security Council during the cold war in recognition of their strength as a super power, that's hardly even relevant to now. Putin has made overtures to both NATO and the EU and we have locked him out. That is as much because it has been convenient for us to 'have a threat' to justify US military spending, as it is because Russia doesn't tick all the required boxes IMO. Frankly though, I don't get paid to think up strategies to contain Russia - that's not my job. Whoever does have that job, has failed. That's my point.

 

So we can frame my whole position as this, if it's more acceptable to you: Whether we could have done anything about this or not, what it reveals about the West is that we are weak, riven by fear and insecurity, and that we will not stand up in defence of countries which share our values and systems. It reveals that the US philosophy is ultimately empty, there's just nothing there. It's all words. Renton is saying that this is the best we can do - fine - but then words were all it ever was. And Putin is showing us that he now understands that.

[spongebob toonpants 3993]

These two territories have been under Russian control since 2014 anyway.

 

The US and the UK have been beating the war drum so much that he had to do something or look very weak.

No coincidence that Biden and Johnson talking this up while so weak at home

 

The sanctions for this will be minimal and the West will be able to claim they have made Putin back down

 

There is no way Russia can afford war with Ukraine so its very unlikely we will see tanks rolling into Kiev 

 

Added bonus for the US is it can sell a fuck ton of war toys to Ukraine

[Dr Gloom 21912]

5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I can see that, but this place has a habit of pigeonholing me into categories I don't actually belong to a lot of the time  

 

I am, first and foremost, a believer in a wider ranging and internationalist vision of humanity represented by increasingly strong ties between cultures and peoples, and the eventual elimination of the nation state. A fantasy, frankly, but that's what I believe in. It's why our departure from the EU was such a deal breaker for me with Labour.

 

I find the idea that we'd abandon a sovereign country that is geographically inside of Europe, to a country that has enacted genocide upon them in living memory, to be utterly abhorrent. Stuff like this shows me that the West just isn't interested in what it purports to stand for. We may have been once, but now we have our tails between our legs, licking our wounds from our own right wing insurgencies and attempts to upset the international norms. As I've said many times, this stance is only going to embolden others. So it's not "we are sacrificing Ukraine", it's "we are sacrificing Western values and international norms throughout the world".

 

 

They secured the Security Council during the cold war in recognition of their strength as a super power, that's hardly even relevant to now. Putin has made overtures to both NATO and the EU and we have locked him out. That is as much because it has been convenient for us to 'have a threat' to justify US military spending, as it is because Russia doesn't tick all the required boxes IMO. Frankly though, I don't get paid to think up strategies to contain Russia - that's not my job. Whoever does have that job, has failed. That's my point.

 

So we can frame my whole position as this, if it's more acceptable to you: Whether we could have done anything about this or not, what it reveals about the West is that we are weak, riven by fear and insecurity, and that we will not stand up in defence of countries which share our values and systems. It reveals that the US philosophy is ultimately empty, there's just nothing there. It's all words. Renton is saying that this is the best we can do - fine - but then words were all it ever was. And Putin is showing us that he now understands that.

 

our lack of support for ukraine exposes the posturing we indulge in about promoting and protecting democracy for what it is

[Renton 21567]

5 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I can see that, but this place has a habit of pigeonholing me into categories I don't actually belong to a lot of the time  

 

I am, first and foremost, a believer in a wider ranging and internationalist vision of humanity represented by increasingly strong ties between cultures and peoples, and the eventual elimination of the nation state. A fantasy, frankly, but that's what I believe in. It's why our departure from the EU was such a deal breaker for me with Labour.

 

I find the idea that we'd abandon a sovereign country that is geographically inside of Europe, to a country that has enacted genocide upon them in living memory, to be utterly abhorrent. Stuff like this shows me that the West just isn't interested in what it purports to stand for. We may have been once, but now we have our tails between our legs, licking our wounds from our own right wing insurgencies and attempts to upset the international norms. As I've said many times, this stance is only going to embolden others. So it's not "we are sacrificing Ukraine", it's "we are sacrificing Western values and international norms throughout the world".

 

 

They secured the Security Council during the cold war in recognition of their strength as a super power, that's hardly even relevant to now. Putin has made overtures to both NATO and the EU and we have locked him out. That is as much because it has been convenient for us to 'have a threat' to justify US military spending, as it is because Russia doesn't tick all the required boxes IMO. Frankly though, I don't get paid to think up strategies to contain Russia - that's not my job. Whoever does have that job, has failed. That's my point.

 

So we can frame my whole position as this, if it's more acceptable to you: Whether we could have done anything about this or not, what it reveals about the West is that we are weak, riven by fear and insecurity, and that we will not stand up in defence of countries which share our values and systems. It reveals that the US philosophy is ultimately empty, there's just nothing there. It's all words. Renton is saying that this is the best we can do - fine - but then words were all it ever was. And Putin is showing us that he now understands that.

 

I agree entirely with your Roddenberryesque view of the future, but you're naïve if you don't realise this will take Millenia, let alone centuries. And it has to come from within countries themselves, surely you can see an EU with a Putin led Russia in it would cease to be what you want it to be? I hate what has happening to Ukraine, but they will have to find their own way. Ukraine ultimately wasn't the red line for us, that is EU and NATO allies. I don't want to die in a nuclear war because of Ukraine. 

[PaddockLad 17239]

Fritz moves first... Nord Stream 2 won't be certified 

 

 

[ewerk 30544]

I'm still not sure what else could have been done. NATO was established because of the Russian threat. There's no way that Russia will ever meet the standards of EU membership.

 

Macron went to meet Putin. We threatened sanctions. We even sent Liz Truss over ffs. None of it worked. 

 

If Putin is determined to re-establish the USSR then the only way to stop him is military action and nobody wants that.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

I agree entirely with your Roddenberryesque view of the future, but you're naïve if you don't realise this will take Millenia, let alone centuries. And it has to come from within countries themselves, surely you can see an EU with a Putin led Russia in it would cease to be what you want it to be? I hate what has happening to Ukraine, but they will have to find their own way. Ukraine ultimately wasn't the red line for us, that is EU and NATO allies. I don't want to die in a nuclear war because of Ukraine. 

 

but you'd take a nuke for north macedonia? 

[Renton 21567]

2 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

but you'd take a nuke for north macedonia? 

 

I'd rather not, but ultimately yes I guess. [looks up where it is on a map\]

I believe in a rule based world hierarchy and thems the rules. 

[Rayvin 5217]

Just now, Renton said:

 

I agree entirely with your Roddenberryesque view of the future, but you're naïve if you don't realise this will take Millenia, let alone centuries. And it has to come from within countries themselves, surely you can see an EU with a Putin led Russia in it would cease to be what you want it to be? I hate what has happening to Ukraine, but they will have to find their own way. Ukraine ultimately wasn't the red line for us, that is EU and NATO allies. I don't want to die in a nuclear war because of Ukraine. 

 

I do realise this, I know I'll never see it. Putin and his right wing cronies the world over are actively taking us away from it though. This shit might cost us an extra century in the long run, maybe more.

 

I think the EU is arguably a bigger player than even the US, if it could just federalise properly. If it could manage that, Russia would be a minor player in a bigger whole.

 

2 minutes ago, ewerk said:

I'm still not sure what else could have been done. NATO was established because of the Russian threat. There's no way that Russia will ever meet the standards of EU membership.

 

Macron went to meet Putin. We threatened sanctions. We even sent Liz Truss over ffs. None of it worked. 

 

If Putin is determined to re-establish the USSR then the only way to stop him is military action and nobody wants that.

 

It's not your job to work this out either. Putin has taken decades to get to this point, are we really saying that over the course of the last 30 years, progress couldn't have been made to avoid escalations like this? Putin wanted Russia to be taken seriously as a nation, and not to have the US encroaching on its borders. He reached out many times to the West in the early years, and while I really don't like the guy, we more or less spat in his face.

 

As I said though, if there was never anything that could have been done, then the west has been pretending to be much more powerful than it actually is. And that's the most dangerous part of all of this, that revelation.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

32 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Well so far the huge expansion of Russia amounts to 3 small parts of Ukraine. He might take the whole of Ukraine, but I doubt it

 

i guess we'll see. i hope you're right, but like i said a few pages back: history teaches us to be wary of psychopathic dictators

[Rayvin 5217]

5 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

but you'd take a nuke for north macedonia? 

 

In reality, as we all know, we wouldn't. I doubt we'd actually do anything up until he was against the German borders tbh.

[Renton 21567]

1 minute ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

i guess we'll see. i hope you're right, but like i said a few pages back: history teaches us to be wary of psychopathic dictators

 

Historically psychopathic dictators didn't have nuclear weapons either. Can you see how this changes things? A world war as we have known it isn't possible now. 

[Renton 21567]

2 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

In reality, as we all know, we wouldn't. I doubt we'd actually do anything up until he was against the German borders tbh.

 

I'll be honest, you caught me off guard with North Macedonia, I barely knew of its existence. In reality, I think we'd fight a conventional war for any NATO member, we'd have to. Most at threat are the Baltic states and Poland. That's where I hope the red line is not tested. 

[Rayvin 5217]

I don't want to die in a nuclear holocaust either fwiw. I just think he's called our bluff and won.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

Just now, Rayvin said:

I don't want to die in a nuclear holocaust either fwiw. I just think he's called our bluff and won.

 

yup, this is where i'm at too. i think we could have played a stronger hand and still avoided conflict without asking vlad to roll over for a tummy tickle

[Renton 21567]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

I don't want to die in a nuclear holocaust either fwiw. I just think he's called our bluff and won.

 

Well, not really. What bluff has he called? He was threatened with sanctions, he'll get sanctions. Nord Stream 2 will be cut off. We are doing what we said we would do. 

[Rayvin 5217]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Well, not really. What bluff has he called? He was threatened with sanctions, he'll get sanctions. Nord Stream 2 will be cut off. We are doing what we said we would do. 

 

That wasn't the bluff - the bluff was the idea that the West had the resolve to stand up to him properly. He's priced in the sanctions man, clearly they're not a concern compared to taking Ukraine or he wouldn't be doing it.

[Renton 21567]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

That wasn't the bluff - the bluff was the idea that the West had the resolve to stand up to him properly. He's priced in the sanctions man, clearly they're not a concern compared to taking Ukraine or he wouldn't be doing it.

 We're going round in circles a bit here. The West never said we'd intervene other than with sanctions. That's what we are doing. Do you want us to fight him militarily, yes or no?

 

You know, sometimes there are no good options, just less bad ones. I think that's where we are at. 

[Craig 6682]

I've just attended a cyber espionage intelligence briefing which basically outlined the tactics 'Sandworm' are likely to take to support Russia's operations in Ukraine. 

[Rayvin 5217]

Just now, Renton said:

 We're going round in circles a bit here. The West never said we'd intervene other than with sanctions. That's what we are doing. Do you want us to fight him militarily, yes or no?

 

You know, sometimes there are no good options, just less bad ones. I think that's where we are at. 

 

I'm attempting to appraise our strategy of containment for Putin across several decades. This is where the failure is. If there are no good options now, it's because we failed in the build up. Our sanctions failed in Crimea, apparently. Otherwise we wouldn't be here, right? If Putin gave a shit about sanctions, this wouldn't have happened.

 

I don't personally believe he'd bring nukes into play over an invasion into another country btw, he's not stupid. I think we could ground war that. More than that, I think he'd actually fall off his chair if we actually did it. If we had marched troops into Ukraine as a 'peacekeeping' force, what would he have done? Launched nukes? I doubt it.

[Ayatollah Hermione 13856]

If it all kicks off in Russia, let’s hope the lads at Bang Bros get the very best adult movie starlets out and integrated into the United States before they see damage

[Rayvin 5217]

Estonia apparently prepared to step up for Western values, even if Europe and the US won't:

 

We stand united with Ukraine. We will not walk away. We will continue to support you in every possible way.

I praise the Ukrainian leaders who, despite constant provocations, remain calm and express willingness to solve this conflict peacefully.

Russia must end the intolerable provocations and stop fuelling the conflict, which has been ongoing for eight years. Moscow should immediately and unconditionally withdraw its forces from Ukraine’s territory and its immediate vicinity.

We strongly condemn all military and hybrid actions against Ukraine. We regret that despite diplomatic efforts, there are no signs of willingness to de-escalate - quite the opposite, [with] the buildup of Russian forces continues, including in Belarus.

I align myself with everyone who wishes we had a way to secure peace through the force of diplomacy and dialogue.

Indeed, it is a decisive moment in European history. President Putin will answer to future generations for his violent actions. As European and western leaders, we also have the responsibility to step up to our values [and] our commitment to a Europe that is united and at peace. We regret every single life lost.

It is our duty to protect our common values and the democracy we all helped to build. A threat to Ukraine is a threat to the security of Europe.

The minimum we can do is to step up our practical support to Ukraine, which Estonia has done and will continue to do. In the EU, we will deliver on a massive package of sanctions and do so swiftly and decisively. But most importantly we must keep the door to EU and Nato open for Ukraine and we must have concrete next steps for further cooperation and integration.

We know you will continue to value democracy and remain on the path of reforms. Eventually we will welcome you as the member of the European Union - you belong in Europe.

We support Ukraine’s independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity. We remain fully committed to the policy of non-recognition of illegal annexation of Ukraine’s territories. Ukraine has a right to defend its borders and independence and we continue helping Ukraine to build its military capabilities to stand against the aggression.

[Renton 21567]

11 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'm attempting to appraise our strategy of containment for Putin across several decades. This is where the failure is. If there are no good options now, it's because we failed in the build up. Our sanctions failed in Crimea, apparently. Otherwise we wouldn't be here, right? If Putin gave a shit about sanctions, this wouldn't have happened.

 

I don't personally believe he'd bring nukes into play over an invasion into another country btw, he's not stupid. I think we could ground war that. More than that, I think he'd actually fall off his chair if we actually did it. If we had marched troops into Ukraine as a 'peacekeeping' force, what would he have done? Launched nukes? I doubt it.

 

But we are where we are. This thread is about Biden, why are you blaming him for shit that has happened over decades. The danger of nuclear weapons is that they could be used as escalation from conventional warfare. In a conventional square go between Russia and the US, Russia would be annihilated and may feel their only option to save face is to use tactical nukes. 

[Meenzer 15518]

8 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Estonia apparently prepared to step up for Western values, even if Europe and the US won't:

 

We stand united with Ukraine. We will not walk away. We will continue to support you in every possible way.

I praise the Ukrainian leaders who, despite constant provocations, remain calm and express willingness to solve this conflict peacefully.

Russia must end the intolerable provocations and stop fuelling the conflict, which has been ongoing for eight years. Moscow should immediately and unconditionally withdraw its forces from Ukraine’s territory and its immediate vicinity.

We strongly condemn all military and hybrid actions against Ukraine. We regret that despite diplomatic efforts, there are no signs of willingness to de-escalate - quite the opposite, [with] the buildup of Russian forces continues, including in Belarus.

I align myself with everyone who wishes we had a way to secure peace through the force of diplomacy and dialogue.

Indeed, it is a decisive moment in European history. President Putin will answer to future generations for his violent actions. As European and western leaders, we also have the responsibility to step up to our values [and] our commitment to a Europe that is united and at peace. We regret every single life lost.

It is our duty to protect our common values and the democracy we all helped to build. A threat to Ukraine is a threat to the security of Europe.

The minimum we can do is to step up our practical support to Ukraine, which Estonia has done and will continue to do. In the EU, we will deliver on a massive package of sanctions and do so swiftly and decisively. But most importantly we must keep the door to EU and Nato open for Ukraine and we must have concrete next steps for further cooperation and integration.

We know you will continue to value democracy and remain on the path of reforms. Eventually we will welcome you as the member of the European Union - you belong in Europe.

We support Ukraine’s independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity. We remain fully committed to the policy of non-recognition of illegal annexation of Ukraine’s territories. Ukraine has a right to defend its borders and independence and we continue helping Ukraine to build its military capabilities to stand against the aggression.

 

I liked the Kenyan statement