President Biden

[Gemmill 46016]

7 hours ago, Isegrim said:

 

 

And still not as fucking thick as him. 

[Isegrim 9896]

 

[Dr Gloom 22143]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/26/joe-biden-left-parties-power-radical-winning
 

Can Starmer pull of the same trick here? Jury is out. The main hurdle seems to be political infighting. The “left” in the US doesn’t seem as intent on self destruction as we do over here 

[Rayvin 5294]

Yeah i read that a few days ago. That article has very little on substance though, mostly because not enough time has passed to judge anything. Yes he's been successful with COVID so far but then over the same time period so has Johnson. Take that out of his argument and there's not much left.

 

Also Freedland is a longstanding centrist on the Labour front and was needling Corbyn from the word go when he won power. So to be clear with your comment,  the left and the centre need to stop fighting each other. The centre was actually even worse when Corbyn won power - coups, articles in the press, stabbing people in the front, etc.

 

For what it's worth though, the left in the US has been far  far more visible and vocal in opposition to the centrist wing of the democrats at least as far as the actual politicians are concerned. Corbyn has said next to fuck all since he resigned, AOC has been threatening to jack in politics altogether if things dont improve.

 

Biden is having an easy ride because people still remember Trump. I don't think he's going to be able to rely on that forever. That said, I'm reserving judgement for now - he seems to be doing ok. But that article is naively premature or, more likely, a cheap jab to confirm the writer's existing worldview. He'll be invisible if things start going wrong.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Rayvin

[Rayvin 5294]

I'm also going to add - the left aren't going to cost Starmer victory. No one is listening to them, no one cares.

 

Starmer is going to lose because he can't win back the Brexit redwallers (the left will have zero impact on these people) and he can't retain the diehard remainers (the left has basically zero impact here either as they would also be seeking to move on, from everything I've read).

 

You can safely forget about the left torpedoing Starmer. If he fucks up, and he will, it's because the centreground in Labour has failed.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Rayvin

[Alex 35568]

Here we go  

[Rayvin 5294]

 

Tbf, I'm coming to a new viewpoint on this stuff now anyway - I only replied to this one because I read the same article the other day and also had a friend of mine (far more left wing) read it so we could talk it through. My current view is that I'm not even really paying attention to politics anymore because it was just making me miserable, and I'm looking more at things I can control myself - i.e. my own life.

 

So, other than the essays contributed so far, I'll accept that a diversity of opinion exists and leave it there  I mean, I'll try to. We'll see.

[Howmanheyman 33822]

This red wall bollocks needs fucking torpedoing to be honest. Sick of hearing about it and sick of the massively inflated influence it apparently has that it previously never had when it was supposedly more red. 

[Dr Gloom 22143]

2 hours ago, Howmanheyman said:

This red wall bollocks needs fucking torpedoing to be honest. Sick of hearing about it and sick of the massively inflated influence it apparently has that it previously never had when it was supposedly more red. 

The problem is the Tories found a way to speak to traditional labour heartlands. The only way Labour gets in power is winning those seats back while also flipping the type of middle England constituency Blair used to win. I dunno how you square that circle tbh. But someone like Starmer must have a better chance than corbyn. 

[NJS 4411]

The demographics don't help - "dying" towns in the North are losing young people and as the percentage of old people increases, the criteria for getting votes changes.

 

The tories are happy to appeal to those "values" to the point of denying institutional racism (as an example) because it knows it solidifies those votes. 

[strawb 4378]

Yeah, I grew up in a “dying” northern town. Everyone my age with a bit about them moved elsewhere, the people left behind are my parents age or people who got left behind, how do Labour make these generations of people believe better is available

[Howmanheyman 33822]

6 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

The problem is the Tories found a way to speak to traditional labour heartlands. The only way Labour gets in power is winning those seats back while also flipping the type of middle England constituency Blair used to win. I dunno how you square that circle tbh. But someone like Starmer must have a better chance than corbyn. 

It needs to flip the middle England seats. Most of the area around me is labour. It needs to look further down the road.

[Dr Gloom 22143]

 

1 hour ago, Howmanheyman said:

It needs to flip the middle England seats. Most of the area around me is labour. It needs to look further down the road.

When places like Blyth and Doncaster turn blue you have a problem 

[NJS 4411]

3 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

When places like Blyth and Doncaster turn blue you have a problem 

In general yes but Blyth's margin was about 1000 and 1500 who'd voted Labour voted Green and LD - probably down to Corbyn - so he needs to start with those before getting to switchers to the tories. Taking brexit out of the equation will help but he still needs to show people what he stands for which is where he's failed so far. 

[nufcpepper 0]

What a difference with Trump!

[Dr Gloom 22143]

Good take by Will Hutton on Biden’s new deal 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/04/with-joe-bidens-own-audacious-new-deal-the-democratic-left-rediscovers-its-soul

[ewerk 31195]

Quote

The lessons for the British left are clear. Left firebrands, however good their programmes, may appeal to the party faithful. But it takes a Biden to win elections and then deliver.

What many of us have been saying for years. Hopefully Starmer looks across the pond and sees that he has to move to the left to differentiate himself from the Tories.

[NJS 4411]

Trump would've slaughtered him but for the pandemic. 

[Alex 35568]

Just now, NJS said:

Trump would've slaughtered him but for the pandemic. 

I was thinking the same

 

[Dr Gloom 22143]

Debatable. Either way, Biden has seized the opportunity to potentially to do something very positive over there.

Johnson has had an awful pandemic, barring the vaccine success. Starmer has been mostly anonymous, probably trying too hard to sound supportive, too wary of being accused of politicising a national crisis. He has to change this approach as we emerge from it. He has to provide stronger opposition and make the Tories own the fallout. 

[ewerk 31195]

7 hours ago, NJS said:

Trump would've slaughtered him but for the pandemic. 

The polls had pretty much any Democratic candidate winning against Trump before the actual election. To put it down to covid is to buy into the Trump narrative. If you ask me the margin of victory was down to the BLM movement above all else.

[Rayvin 5294]

I think Biden would have beaten him either way - I don't think the pandemic was as big a factor as Trump being repellent generally. That said, I really don't think anyone voted 'for Biden' more than they voted 'against Trump'. So I don't personally think his victory proves very much at all about centrist/left strategy unfortunately.

 

With that said, Starmer is clearly not going to be able to win on a hard left footing - he's too bland to pull people with him on something like that and the well has been poisoned too much anyway.

[Dr Gloom 22143]

22 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I think Biden would have beaten him either way - I don't think the pandemic was as big a factor as Trump being repellent generally. That said, I really don't think anyone voted 'for Biden' more than they voted 'against Trump'. So I don't personally think his victory proves very much at all about centrist/left strategy unfortunately.

 

With that said, Starmer is clearly not going to be able to win on a hard left footing - he's too bland to pull people with him on something like that and the well has been poisoned too much anyway.

I think a lot of centrist republicans would have found him more palatable than “democratic socialist” Bernie sanders. The word socialist alone is enough to lose several states over there. It’s about how you package it to secure power - dress up as a moderate then deliver real change once you’re in office. Biden wants to push through a pretty radical deal. He seems to have played it perfectly. 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 5294]

6 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

I think a lot of centrist republicans would have found him more palatable than “democratic socialist” Bernie sanders. The word socialist is enough to lose states over there. It’s about how you package it to secure powder. Biden seems to be delivering pretty radical change. He seems to have played it perfectly. 

 

Well obviously the centrist republicans would prefer Biden to Sanders - and I'm fully aware of the issue with the word socialism. We've talked these points to death so let's not

 

 

[Dr Gloom 22143]

39 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Well obviously the centrist republicans would prefer Biden to Sanders - and I'm fully aware of the issue with the word socialism. We've talked these points to death so let's not

 

 

But it’s precisely the point isn’t it, apologies if I’m labouring it, and there are parallels over here. There is no appetite for overt socialism in middle England either. But if you can find a way to win power, and to do so you have to win back these voters, you can swing to the left later.