Kevin Carr's Gloves 3888 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Rayvin said: So you think we should close our eyes, bury our heads in the sand, and not understand what the people who just voted in the worst president in history are saying about him now - and just kinda hope that it doesn't happen again? I'm not advocating for their views being held up as some kind of truth, or balance against factual analysis. I'm saying that their views should be aired and understood. Primarily so they can be challenged or considered from a policy perspective. And I'm not even talking about the actual fascists here, I'm talking about the idiots. The same sorts of idiots who voted for Brexit. In what way would you air the views of fascists, racists, misogynists and idiots without giving them a platform from which they can proclaim acceptance? Edited August 16, 2018 by Kevin Carr's Gloves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5217 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said: In what way would you air the views of fascists, racists, misogynists and idiots without giving them a platform from which they can proclaim acceptance? I didn't say the fascists, I said the idiots. And if they are complaining about poor living conditions, little aspiration, reduced job opportunities, etc - then this is something that should be considered. Sure, the reasons they put forward for why this happens will ultimately be prejudiced ones, but we can tackle the issues and the prejudice at the same time. Frankly though, what I meant by my original comment really was that I have no lens on what Trump voters think of him issue to issue, and so little understanding of how the left is supposed to 'resist'. And from what I've seen so far, it's not calling everyone under the sun a racist. That seems to be helping Trump. I saw something in the Guardian the other day that stunned me a bit tbh, as much as it follows logically based on supply and demand; factory wages in the UK are rising as employers have to pay more to get workers, what with immigration from the EU falling. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/08/shortage-of-factory-workers-starts-to-push-up-pay-rates#comments So clearly, concerns about immigration taking jobs and suppressing pay - in certain sectors - are valid. Why can we not address this? Our refusal to listen to people who feel this way is not helping and is creating Trumps and Brexits. I can't get my head around why some people are so determined just to pretend that this issue isn't happening, and that we can make it go away with name calling and looking the other way. Edited August 16, 2018 by Rayvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4378 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Look up "Bikers for Trump" and Harley Davison to see the level of stupidity you're dealing with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3888 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Rayvin said: I didn't say the fascists, I said the idiots. And if they are complaining about poor living conditions, little aspiration, reduced job opportunities, etc - then this is something that should be considered. Sure, the reasons they put forward for why this happens will ultimately be prejudiced ones, but we can tackle the issues and the prejudice at the same time. Frankly though, what I meant by my original comment really was that I have no lens on what Trump voters think of him issue to issue, and so little understanding of how the left is supposed to 'resist'. And from what I've seen so far, it's not calling everyone under the sun a racist. That seems to be helping Trump. I saw something in the Guardian the other day that stunned me a bit tbh, as much as it follows logically based on supply and demand; factory wages in the UK are rising as employers have to pay more to get workers, what with immigration from the EU falling. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/08/shortage-of-factory-workers-starts-to-push-up-pay-rates#comments So clearly, concerns about immigration taking jobs - in certain sectors - are valid. Why can we not address this? Our refusal to listen to people who feel this way is not helping and is creating Trumps and Brexits. I can't get my head around why some people are so determined just to pretend that this issue isn't happening, and that we can make it go away with name calling and looking the other way. Factories are having to pay more that's great, up to a point, I they continue to have to pay high rates for unskilled workers those pay rises will make the factories in the UK non viable as they will start to cost more than they are worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5217 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 13 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said: Factories are having to pay more that's great, up to a point, I they continue to have to pay high rates for unskilled workers those pay rises will make the factories in the UK non viable as they will start to cost more than they are worth. Yep, but as far as your average worker is concerned, you can see why they believe immigration is too high. The counter argument is the establishment of a living wage that is enforced properly I guess. All I'm saying is I wish we could deal with these issues instead of letting them ruin our countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30569 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Rayvin said: So you think we should close our eyes, bury our heads in the sand, and not understand what the people who just voted in the worst president in history are saying about him now - and just kinda hope that it doesn't happen again? I'm not advocating for their views being held up as some kind of truth, or balance against factual analysis. I'm saying that their views should be aired and understood. Primarily so they can be challenged or considered from a policy perspective. And I'm not even talking about the actual fascists here, I'm talking about the idiots. The same sorts of idiots who voted for Brexit. The problem with that is that, as you say, they’re idiots. And idiots don’t change their minds because of facts and logic. All you do is give them a platform to attract more idiots to their cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 I think the sooner we realise we're all idiots the better we'll be for it. There isn't some magical divide between "idiot" and "not idiot" (at least until Trump/Brexit happened ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30569 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Speak for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Carr's Gloves 3888 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, adios said: I think the sooner we realise we're all idiots the better we'll be for it. There isn't some magical divide between "idiot" and "not idiot" (at least until Trump/Brexit happened ). Idiots by their nature are not self aware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 And the rest of us all in some objective brain-utopia. It's non-binary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4378 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Nuclear war with Iran by this time tomorrow is my guess when he sees the shit happening now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adios 717 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Quote Cohen stood and plead guilty to charges, including that in October 2016, he, in coordination with “the candidate” arranged to make a payment to an “individual with information that would be harmful to the candidate and to the campaign.” Cohen said he used a company that was under his control to make the payment of $130,000 and those monies were later repaid to me by the candidate and that this was done “for the principal purpose of influencing the election.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaddockLad 17243 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Half expected to wake up this morning to find that the US had nuked North Korea. Maybe Trump will just fire some tweets out about how he loves drowning puppies or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44811 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30569 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 So I assume that Manafort hasn't been co-operating up to this point? Being found guilty on eight charges might change that. Surely Trump couldn't pardon him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30569 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 'There was no collusion' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44811 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 6 minutes ago, ewerk said: So I assume that Manafort hasn't been co-operating up to this point? Being found guilty on eight charges might change that. Surely Trump couldn't pardon him? Aye Manafort hasn't cooperated. There are two schools of thought on it - either he thinks Trump will pardon him or he thinks Russia will poison him so can't take the risk. Or it may be that he just hasn't cooperated YET. He's still got another trial to go later in the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewerk 30569 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Yeah, I was wondering if he was just arrogant enough to think he could win in court. This verdict may have shown him that he can't win the next one and so might be more willing to co-operate. Though if Cohen has evidence that Trump knew about the Russian hacking then that could be game over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44811 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, ewerk said: Yeah, I was wondering if he was just arrogant enough to think he could win in court. This verdict may have shown him that he can't win the next one and so might be more willing to co-operate. Though if Cohen has evidence that Trump knew about the Russian hacking then that could be game over. Possibly. I suppose if you've been in that rich man world where people just don't get found guilty, you might be daft enough. The fact that his defence team literally offered no defence to the prosecution though, would suggest that he would have to know he was fucked. I think I'd probably take life in a cushy prison and the possibility of a pardon over a cup of radioactive tea though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmill 44811 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Btw the Luke Harding book Collusion is a really good read. I read it on holiday recently and it lays out all of this shot in journalistic detail and there's just no question whatsoever that Trump is fucked here. It's just a matter of time and the Democrats winning back the house. The stuff on Manafort in the book is unreal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4378 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 I think Mueller handed off the Cohen and Manafort stuff in order to get the leverage for making them cooperate on the big stuff. He knows he needs a shit load of smoking guns to get enough republican senators to vote for impeachment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex 35063 Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 On the Beeb the other day there was a report about the white, conservative 'Christian' Republican voters who'd previously been the most concerned with how a politician's private life affected their ability to operate as a politician but how they were now the group for whom it concerned them the least. It claimed they'd become 'more forgiving'. I mean, ffs. They've just demonstrated they're the massive hypocrites everybody already knew them to be, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinRobin 11261 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 17 hours ago, Alex said: On the Beeb the other day there was a report about the white, conservative 'Christian' Republican voters who'd previously been the most concerned with how a politician's private life affected their ability to operate as a politician but how they were now the group for whom it concerned them the least. It claimed they'd become 'more forgiving'. I mean, ffs. They've just demonstrated they're the massive hypocrites everybody already knew them to be, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonatine 11361 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorthernsoul 1221 Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45285585 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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