President Biden

[Rayvin 5223]

On Fauci and beagles:

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/fauci-vaccine-experiment-beagles/

 

He did not sign off on the things people are saying he did, indeed the US didn't even fund that research - however he his department has signed off on related research which has some questionable ethical considerations IMO, but apparently all legal in the US. Thus any issue there is with US law rather than the man himself.

[PaddockLad 17281]

Ok Joe,  it’s your move now….

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60454795?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6213d817571bfc64f8e64d15%26Putin recognises independence of breakaway areas of Ukraine%262022-02-21T18%3A23%3A35.524Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:f772d326-7966-4f45-997b-a1fbf6015fa0&pinned_post_asset_id=6213d817571bfc64f8e64d15&pinned_post_type=share

[Dr Gloom 21924]

 

[Dr Gloom 21924]

So much for the deterrent effect of NATO. Eastern Ukraine will be ceded to Russia to protect the rest.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3897]

11 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

So much for the deterrent effect of NATO. Eastern Ukraine will be ceded to Russia to protect the rest.

Except the Ukraine isn’t in NATO

[Dr Gloom 21924]

7 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

Except the Ukraine isn’t in NATO

The old chestnut that NATO kept the peace is shown up for what it is. Harsh words and sanctions alone will not stop an annexation by Russia of Eastern Ukraine.
 

Both sides will have war-gamed this, so the formality of NATO membership doesn’t  matter. NATO is condoning Putin’s actions for fear of a wider conflict. He has divided NATO and the EU, but it is lamentable to think he will stop there. History shows you have to resist a crazy dictator at some point. Why is NATO such a no-go area for political debate when it proves toothless?

[PaddockLad 17281]

NATO is Putin’s narrative. Ukraine as an independent nation wouldn’t be admitted to NATO as long as Hungary and Poland are members. All nations need to agree to accept new members and these two would reject the proposal immediately due to Putin having his hand up their metaphorical  arses . 
 

Putin needs to die in power, he’s a dictator. To get rid of him the west need to provoke his inner circle into doing it themselves. The article I posted the other day had it right, western governments need to start squeezing the Oligarchs’ bollocks. It is, after all, mostly Putin’s wealth they are hiding. Get every UK citizen who wants to leave out of Russia/Eastern Europe then declare war on Russia without firing a shot and  literally intern every Oligarch in London. Do the same in Paris, New York and Miami, close down the banks laundering the roubles and intern their directors for benefitting from the proceeds of crime. His goons will then soon take him out. We’ve got to do something, he’s holding the world to ransom. Fuck knows what comes next after all that, but we’ve got  start somewhere or this is the future for our kids, being servile to that fuckin psycho. Fuck that. 

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3897]

17 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

The old chestnut that NATO kept the peace is shown up for what it is. Harsh words and sanctions alone will not stop an annexation by Russia of Eastern Ukraine.
 

Both sides will have war-gamed this, so the formality of NATO membership doesn’t  matter. NATO is condoning Putin’s actions for fear of a wider conflict. He has divided NATO and the EU, but it is lamentable to think he will stop there. History shows you have to resist a crazy dictator at some point. Why is NATO such a no-go area for political debate when it proves toothless?

Just because they don’t intervene doesn’t mean they condone it. Do you condone Poland’s move to the right. If not what are you doing about it. Obviously that’s a totally ridiculous thing to say but I do so to point out that not acting against something doesn’t mean you condone it. Ffs think about all those media types saying we condone the authoritarian regime in Saudi.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

9 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

Just because they don’t intervene doesn’t mean they condone it. Do you condone Poland’s move to the right. If not what are you doing about it. Obviously that’s a totally ridiculous thing to say but I do so to point out that not acting against something doesn’t mean you condone it. Ffs think about all those media types saying we condone the authoritarian regime in Saudi.

The Saudis aren’t embarking on imperialism on Europe’s doorstep though. 
 

Ukraine has been at war with Russia for several years with time for the West to be prepared. And it’s not, because NATO essentially is a Cold War body that looks backwards. This Putin aggression will have been war gamed and he knows it. Risk management to stop a wider conflict now is playing into his hands.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

Where does it end and what do we pay NATO for? 

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3897]

36 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Where does it end and what do we pay NATO for? 

So would you volunteer to go to the front line in a NATO action?

[Dr Gloom 21924]

5 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

So would you volunteer to go to the front line in a NATO action?

 

wtf are you talking about?  

[ewerk 30620]

47 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Where does it end and what do we pay NATO for? 

We pay about £200m a year towards NATO. It isn’t mind boggling amounts.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

We pay about £200m a year towards NATO. It isn’t mind boggling amounts.

Aye but what is the point in it if it literally does nothing?

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3897]

22 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

wtf are you talking about?  

You seem quite happy to send soldiers to their death I was wondering if you would consider helping them.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

4 minutes ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

You seem quite happy to send soldiers to their death I was wondering if you would consider helping them.

you’ll have to point me to where I said that 

[Dr Gloom 21924]

Here are a few things NATO could have done:

 

1. Impose a no-fly zone over Ukraine, lifting it only when Putin agrees to negotiation

2. Set a date now for Ukraine and Belorussian to become military free zones; and

3. Stop pretending this is somebody else’s problem.

 

None if this can happen now that Putin has made his move, unless really awful outcomes happen other than the long-term war of attrition he plans in the east.

[Renton 21627]

2 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

The old chestnut that NATO kept the peace is shown up for what it is. Harsh words and sanctions alone will not stop an annexation by Russia of Eastern Ukraine.
 

Both sides will have war-gamed this, so the formality of NATO membership doesn’t  matter. NATO is condoning Putin’s actions for fear of a wider conflict. He has divided NATO and the EU, but it is lamentable to think he will stop there. History shows you have to resist a crazy dictator at some point. Why is NATO such a no-go area for political debate when it proves toothless?

 

What a mess of a post this is like.

1) There's been relative peace in Europe for the longest time in human history. How much of this is down to NATO is debatable, but I think personally it was only the threat of MAD from NATO that kept the cold War cold.

2) Ukraine not being in NATO is hardly a formality. It's a stone cold fact. NATO has no mandate to protect the Ukraine.

3) NATO's condoning Putin’s actions?  Put the crack pipe down.

4) Putin’s not even invaded Eastern Ukraine yet. I'm not convinced he will. It would be an occupation, not a liberation, and that means body bags being sent home. Not to mention sanctions etc. 

 

You're suggestions of what NATO should have done quite frankly are way beyond it's mandate and would risk escalating things to nuclear levels, literally. No thanks. 

[Dr Gloom 21924]

1 minute ago, Renton said:

 

What a mess of a post this is like.

1) There's been relative peace in Europe for the longest time in human history. How much of this is down to NATO is debatable, but I think personally it was only the threat of MAD from NATO that kept the cold War cold.

2) Ukraine not being in NATO is hardly a formality. It's a stone cold fact. NATO has no mandate to protect the Ukraine.

3) NATO's condoning Putin’s actions?  Put the crack pipe down.

4) Putin’s not even invaded Eastern Ukraine yet. I'm not convinced he will. It would be an occupation, not a liberation, and that means body bags being sent home. Not to mention sanctions etc. 

 

You're suggestions of what NATO should have done quite frankly are way beyond it's mandate and would risk escalating things to nuclear levels, literally. No thanks. 

so what is its role? Sit back and let Vlad do his thing? 

[Renton 21627]

It's a military deterrent for its members. If Lithuania or Finland is attacked, we go to war. Not for the Ukraine though. Or Ireland for that matter @ewerk.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

Ukraine is being sacrificed on the altar of energy politics, which is the current political reality - not post Cold War crap about not being in the NATO club.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

Whichever way you look at it, Putin has won. Perhaps there really wasn’t anything the west could do and Putin just knew it all along. Now he can annex part of Ukraine and sit tight till the gas becomes so expensive that we decide against the sanctions too. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Dr Gloom

[Renton 21627]

38 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Ukraine is being sacrificed on the altar of energy politics, which is the current political reality - not post Cold War crap about not being in the NATO club.

 

I was going through my childhood stuff this weekend at my mum's and found a Phillip's Atlas I used to love browsing as a kid, copyrighted 1978. Looking at the political map of Europe, I was interested that Ukraine was the same colour as Russia with only the slightest demarcation lines. The Ukraine was a fully fledged part of the USSR proper in contrast to satellite states like Poland.

 

Point is its different to the NATO countries for important historical and geographical reasons. The situation is complicated but to suggest any of the blame lies with NATO or the EU is nonsense. In fact, the fact Russia arent knocking on the door of Poland or the Baltic states is proof in itself NATO works. Give your head a shake. 

[Renton 21627]

39 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Whichever way you look at it, Putin has won. Perhaps there really wasn’t anything the west could do and Putin just knew it all along. Now he can annex part of Ukraine and sit tight till the gas becomes so expensive that we decide against the sanctions too. 

Whats he won? Domestic power to extend his dictatorship? Probably. What else? Putin needs the money from his exported gas as much as we need it. Russia hurts far more from sanctions than the west does, much like the UK did with Brexit. And every year we wean ourselves off his gas and oil he gets weaker. Russia would be a joke were it not for its nuclear armanents. 

[Rayvin 5223]

Feels like he's won to me. Appeasement from Biden and the EU, really underlining the decline of the west.

 

Dismal to see.