President Biden

[Howay 12496]

Christians and other ethnic groups can still travel from these countries. The only atrocity I can remember perpetrated from foreign Muslims was 9/11 and the previous WTC attack. Nearly exclusively Saudis, who ate not on the list. Funny that.

Aye, he has even said they'd now prioritize Christian refugees while blocking Muslim ones. Absolutely absurd.

 

They are going through these people's phones and facebook accounts to search for political opinions, and allegedly asking what they think of Trump. People are writing this off as something employers do to potential applicants and aren't seeing any issue with it.

[Rayvin 5223]

It's almost as if he is trying to stir up hatred and aggravate an attack......

 

Attack on who? By who? Who is this supposed to aggravate?

Edited January 29, 2017 by Rayvin

[NJS 4386]

Christians and other ethnic groups can still travel from these countries. The only atrocity I can remember perpetrated from foreign Muslims was 9/11 and the previous WTC attack. Nearly exclusively Saudis, who are not on the list. Funny that.

The order mentions September 11th 3 times in the opening paragraph which shows it up even more.

[Dr Gloom 21930]

Attack on who? By who? Who is this supposed to aggravate?

It's the sort of move that will play into the extremists' hands as they'll be able to rightly point to the fact that the US now has a president who wants to bar all muslims, even legal residents ffs, from entering the country if they happen to have gone him to visit family in the Middle East.

[Dr Gloom 21930]

Recruitment tool for the likes of Isis basically

[Rayvin 5223]

Hang on though, we've established on here that nothing apart from Islamism forms the recruitment drive for ISIS.

 

Moreover, if they can't actually get into the US in the first place, how does this endanger his country?

Edited January 29, 2017 by Rayvin

[Dr Gloom 21930]

Who established that? I've always argued that jihadism is a driven by a twisted, religious ideology - western intervention has exacerbated the problem but isn't the root cause. Trump's move will undoubtedly fan the flames. I'm amazed you don't see this given your posts in the terrorism thread. It's almost like you're being deliberately obtuse.

 

Edit, I'm just amazed again, frankly, by intelligent people in the left who are giving trump a bit of a free pass here when what we're witnessing is genuinely terrifying.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 5223]

Who established that? I've always argued that jihadism is a driven by a twisted, religious ideology - western intervention has exacerbated the problem but isn't the root cause. Trump's move will undoubtedly fan the flames. I'm amazed you don't see this given your posts in the terrorism thread. It's almost like you're being deliberately obtuse.

 

Edit, I'm just amazed again, frankly, by intelligent people in the left who are giving trump a bit of a free pass here when what we're witnessing is genuinely terrifying.

 

I was being tongue in cheek to expose some of the arguments that are raised about terrorism generally. I can't remember which side of that you were on actually, so if it's as you say then fair enough.

 

Be amazed if you want, but I'm reasonably happy that things have developed as I expected them to over the past few months, and am therefore not concerned about some manner of dystopian future about to be realised. I think he'll bumble along for a year, lose the House in 2018, and then be paralysed until he's booted out in 4 years time to be replaced by an incoming leftwing administration that has finally realised that appealing to corporate greed isn't the way to go, and that this whole charade came about because they insisted on doing just that.

 

The alternative is that Trump's policies stimulate growth and jobs, and the left finds it much harder to establish common ground with the voters. This could lead to the more worrying outcome.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Rayvin

[NJS 4386]

Is there any polling on whether his voters are happy with what he's done?

 

If he's still​ carrying the swing states all of the outrage is meaningless.

[PaddockLad 17281]

The order mentions September 11th 3 times in the opening paragraph which shows it up even more.

Does it mention the Boston marathon bombings? Two self radicalised Chechen brothers in the US on a tourist visa. Yeah. Stopping Mo Farah from seeing his wife and kids will sort that kind of carry on right out

[Rayvin 5223]

Is there any polling on whether his voters are happy with what he's done?

 

If he's still​ carrying the swing states all of the outrage is meaningless.

Even on the day he was elected he had a 60% disapproval polling. This whole election was nothing to do with people being 'pro-Trump' and everything to do with people being anti-corporate, anti-establishment, and desperate for change. If Sanders had beaten Clinton, we wouldn't be here.

[Renton 21629]

Hang on though, we've established on here that nothing apart from Islamism forms the recruitment drive for ISIS.

 

Moreover, if they can't actually get into the US in the first place, how does this endanger his country?

Are you taking the piss now? Adopting strawman arguments and ignoring your own previous statements on this subject?

 

This selective Muslim ban will do nothing but flame the hatred of domestic US Muslims (or Saudi ones, who aren't banned). Say there's another domestic Islamic terrorist attack, then what? Trump will have his excuse to target Muslims residing in the USA.

 

Yeah, maybe this is a blip and your lefty white knight will come in and save the day on 4 years time. Maybe. But there's not a shred of evidence to back this up, is there?

[Rayvin 5223]

Are you taking the piss now? Adopting strawman arguments and ignoring your own previous statements on this subject?

 

This selective Muslim ban will do nothing but flame the hatred of domestic US Muslims (or Saudi ones, who aren't banned). Say there's another domestic Islamic terrorist attack, then what? Trump will have his excuse to target Muslims residing in the USA.

 

Yeah, maybe this is a blip and your lefty white knight will come in and save the day on 4 years time. Maybe. But there's not a shred of evidence to back this up, is there?

 

As I've said, I was taking the piss. Out of the people who think Islam in itself is the sole reason for terrorism. You all know fine well that isn't my view.

 

Lemme ask you guys actually. What do you think the MAIN reason Trump was elected, and that Brexit was voted for, is? One concept only.

[PaddockLad 17281]

Trump and Brexit happened because manipulative figures convinced ordinary people that their lives were worse than shit because of politicians.

[Rayvin 5223]

PL, I disagree. Trump just hijacked the movement - the Alt-Right alone was in ascendancy far before Trump was on the scene. Farage you may have more of a case, but again, I think the sentiment was there anyway. UKIP got 4m votes at the last election. The referendum out vote got 17m. Why did those 13m people suddenly get so motivated about Europe? People's lives just -were- shit.

 

In my view, it was to attack the establishment. That reason alone. Immigration, economics, all of this comes into it, but it was to send a message to a group of people (in the centre) who had become entirely removed from the considerations of normal people. Would Trump have won if he'd gone up against Sanders? Polling suggests no. Sanders was a better anti-establishment message. However, Hillary was chosen (off the back of shady practices by the DNC, it would seem). She was the establishment personified, and she lost. In fact, I genuinely believe that if Trump hadn't been revealed as someone who believes in grabbing people by the pussy, she would have lost the popular vote too. Trump was an utterly terrible candidate, but he wasn't establishment.

 

I know you guys think he is. I know you'll say 'oh he's a billionaire', and 'look who he hired'. None of that matters. Because while yes, that's a pretty establishment portfolio, he had nothing to do with the political cabal in power before him. He was an outsider, and he offered to tear the insiders down. It doesn't matter if you say 'but they should have known he'd be the same' because for one thing, he clearly fucking isn't the same. He's actually doing what he said (horrifyingly), and for another thing, this wasn't about Trump. As I said, his approval ratings even on the day he was elected were terrible. On the day he was elected, 17% of the people who voted for him said he wasn't fit to be President. And yet here he fucking is! Because the centre thought it could keep pushing the establishment and because the fucking media shot the left to shit. Moreso in Corbyn's case than Sanders. Although in fairness to the media, Corbyn stood no chance once the referendum came on the scene - he'd lost his anti-establishment moment. Brexit was something more readily available to vent anger at than a GE in 5 years time.

 

So when I say, 'the left stands a chance' it's because this sentiment isn't (I hope) going to be fulfilled by Trump. Or Brexit. We, as a collective, have acknowledged that. You guys are worrying presumably because you think the people who voted for Trump will continue to do so, or (somewhat incredibly) that Trump will find some way of converting the US into a dictatorship in the next 4 years. And I don't think they will. I think if the left can put up a good change candidate, it'll win.

 

Renton, you asked who this was. It's early days, but in the US I'd suggest the Justice Democrats movement. They've identified the same issue, and are planning to take over the DP and rid it of corporate funding. Their policy positions poll really well across the US.

 

In the UK I'm less optimistic. When Corbyn goes (and he will), I've no idea what'll happen. Labour might go back to what it was, but it'll be hammered. Brexit might well take so long anyway that our generational moment for change has passed. We might need to wait until Brexit has demonstrably proven itself to be shit before we can try again.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Rayvin

[Renton 21629]

Trump and Brexit happened because manipulative figures convinced ordinary people that their lives were worse than shit because of politicians.

Have to say l agree entirely with this as a summary. People are far too easily manipulated.

 

I'm curious Rayvin, when you say people are rebelling against the "establishment", whatever that means *. Why? In what way is life so terrible for the majority over in the US or here? The EU? Do you really think its worse than it was in the 80s? (UK at least). No, it's not.

 

So let's look at what is different, and for me it's the invention of the internet, social media, and ultimately the post truth society we live in, with most people simply being unable to discern between fact and fiction. This is the opening the likes of Trump and Farage have been waiting for.

 

You are so wrong about the importance of free press (or MSM as you disparagingly call them). We need it more than ever, and it is not the enemy. Without the MSM to keep the lies in check, we are in real danger of falling into fascism again. History tells us we never learn from it and are doomed to repeat our mistakes. That's why I'm personally scared.

 

* For someone who is opposed to identity politics, itself a jargon term, it's odd you attach labels to everything. Neo-liberal, Alt-right, SJW, metropolitan elite etc.... None of this nonsense adds any clarity to the discussion.

[Dr Gloom 21930]

Have to say l agree entirely with this as a summary. People are far too easily manipulated.

 

I'm curious Rayvin, when you say people are rebelling against the "establishment", whatever that means *. Why? In what way is life so terrible for the majority over in the US or here? The EU? Do you really think its worse than it was in the 80s? (UK at least). No, it's not.

 

So let's look at what is different, and for me it's the invention of the internet, social media, and ultimately the post truth society we live in, with most people simply being unable to discern between fact and fiction. This is the opening the likes of Trump and Farage have been waiting for.

 

You are so wrong about the importance of free press (or MSM as you disparagingly call them). We need it more than ever, and it is not the enemy. Without the MSM to keep the lies in check, we are in real danger of falling into fascism again. History tells us we never learn from it and are doomed to repeat our mistakes. That's why I'm personally scared.

 

* For someone who is opposed to identity politics, itself a jargon term, it's odd you attach labels to everything. Neo-liberal, Alt-right, SJW, metropolitan elite etc.... None of this nonsense adds any clarity to the discussion.

*fist bump*

[Rayvin 5223]

Have to say l agree entirely with this as a summary. People are far too easily manipulated.

 

I'm curious Rayvin, when you say people are rebelling against the "establishment", whatever that means *. Why? In what way is life so terrible for the majority over in the US or here? The EU? Do you really think its worse than it was in the 80s? (UK at least). No, it's not.

 

So let's look at what is different, and for me it's the invention of the internet, social media, and ultimately the post truth society we live in, with most people simply being unable to discern between fact and fiction. This is the opening the likes of Trump and Farage have been waiting for.

 

You are so wrong about the importance of free press (or MSM as you disparagingly call them). We need it more than ever, and it is not the enemy. Without the MSM to keep the lies in check, we are in real danger of falling into fascism again. History tells us we never learn from it and are doomed to repeat our mistakes. That's why I'm personally scared.

 

* For someone who is opposed to identity politics, itself a jargon term, it's odd you attach labels to everything. Neo-liberal, Alt-right, SJW, metropolitan elite etc.... None of this nonsense adds any clarity to the discussion.

 

I wasn't politically conscious in the 80s. But while it might be your experience that we have it really good, it doesn't seem to be reflected in what many other people are thinking. I can only speak for myself in my view. I worked hard at school, went to Uni and then we were hit by a financial crisis about 3 weeks after I graduated. Suddenly there were no jobs. Then wage stagnation and low growth. Zero hours contracts. The rich getting richer. The middle class being eroded. The positives of globalisation being outweighed by the negatives. And of course austerity. That's been the last 10 years. Why in fuck would people not want to change that? I can't be the only person who thinks this sorry state of affairs is fucking shit? Also, the 80s was when Neoliberalism kicked off in earnest. I don't think we understood what was happening then. We do now.

 

EDIT - wait there's more - unaffordable housing, having to pay fees for higher education, high rental prices, less general ignorance about the way the world works. I'll add more as I think of them...

 

You're right that this is the opportunity that the likes of Farage and Trump have been waiting for, but not, in my view, because of the internet or anything like that. Trump seems to have a love hate relationship with the internet at best. I would argue it's because they've been able to capitalise on a lack of political will in the centre to do anything other than 'maintain', and that they've harnessed widespread rage.

 

I'm not maligning them importance of a free press. I don't think I said anything of the sort. I malign the influence of a press that follows establishment and corporate interests as you well know. Would I rather have that over no press at all? Yes. I'd snap your hand off. Would I prefer an entirely factual service that doesn't seek to influence and coerce on the political level? Infinitely more so.

 

Identity politics is about the use of labels to break people up into groups along lines they can't change. For instance to assume that all white people vote the same way, and all women, etc. Using labels to describe political terms is entirely different and I'm a little surprised that you think it's the same? Of your list, metropolitan elite (not a phrase I can recall using, although I use 'elites' a lot - to define politicians and business leaders normally) is the closest to an 'identity' in the sense of how people are politically grouped today. The rest are self-described political positions.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Rayvin

[Rayvin 5223]

*fist bump*

 

Get a room, you sycophant!

[Dr Gloom 21930]

It was a first bump. I'm not fawning over him. Besides, it's about time someone stuck up for the free press around here other than me!

[Rayvin 5223]

Who you fist is, of course, entirely up to you.

[Dr Gloom 21930]

Dirty bastard

[Kid Dynamite 7031]

 

 

[Rayvin 5223]

To be fair to May, she appears to be caving to pressure:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/29/theresa-may-under-pressure-to-condemn-trumps-us-travel-ban

[Rayvin 5223]

Looks like Trump is going to be forced to either thumb his nose at a lot of general pressure, or to climb down on this issue. This could be dangerous.