President Biden

[Rayvin 5223]

But I suppose, and this is to HF, that Trump is at least an acceptable hate figure that will allow these policies to be exposed as he takes them to extremes. This means that we may, as I said, get a left wing push back that actually fucking sorts some of these problems out. We needed a Trump to come along because we were willfully blind when this sort of shit was being carried out by people like Obama. The MSM simply not giving a shit under his watch, presumably.

[Dr Gloom 21934]

my first reaction to Trump's insanity isnt to pick holes in Obama's record. He got a few things wrong but you can't begin to compare the two on immigration or trade, in my opinion.

 

Trump's protectionist agenda is going to rewrite the free trade consensus that has been led by the states since the 30s and helped enrich the developing world. The consequences here could be catastrophic for the global economy.

 

Look at what Trump is doing on immigration man. You simply cannot compare to Obama there. He's barring people entering the country based on religion. We are potentially seeing one of the most dangerous periods of recent history repeating itself here.

 

Perhaps the biggest concern is his ego, temprememt and approach to twitter diplomacy. We've already seen his approach in this area end short term relations with Mexico. What if he does the same next time with a more dangerous and aggressive world leader?

Edited January 29, 2017 by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 5223]

my first reaction to Trump's insanity isnt to pick holes in Obama's record. He got a few things wrong. You and begin to compare the two on immigration or trade, in my opinion. Trump's protectionist agenda is going to rewrite the free trade consensus that has been led by the states since the 30s and helped enrich the developing world. Look at what Trump is doing on immigration man. You simply cannot compare to Obama there. He's barring people entering the country based on religion. We are potentially seeing one of the most dangerous periods of recent history repeating itself here.

 

Perhaps the biggest concern is his ego, temprememt and approach to twitter diplomacy. We've already seen his approach here end up terminating relations with Mexico. What if he does the same next time with a more dangerous and aggressive world leader?

 

I think it'll be telling actually, how many people Trump has killed by the end of his presidency. Based on his isolationist tendencies, it's quite possible that it could be significantly fewer than Obama. Now, even with his stance on immigration, surely that would make him objectively a less destructive leader? Assuming you agree that the taking of lives is worse than preventing someone access to your country? There's potentially an argument that turning down refugees effectively 'kills' them, but all countries in the world are guilty of this to some degree, not least of which the UK.

 

This is a good article on Trump reinvigorating the culture war, which I think has parallels with the UK post-Brexit. After Brexit, this was actually pretty obvious IMO. The only question was whether it was UK specific or Western. I thought Trump was a stronger contender for the presidency than many others specifically because of this culture war. The left (actually the centre, IMO) hasn't woken up to this yet:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/29/donald-trump-left-faces-new-cultural-warrior-in-battle-it-thought-won

[Dr Gloom 21934]

I think it'll be telling actually, how many people Trump has killed by the end of his presidency. Based on his isolationist tendencies, it's quite possible that it could be significantly fewer than Obama. Now, even with his stance on immigration, surely that would make him objectively a less destructive leader? Assuming you agree that the taking of lives is worse than preventing someone access to your country? There's potentially an argument that turning down refugees effectively 'kills' them, but all countries in the world are guilty of this to some degree, not least of which the UK.

 

This is a good article on Trump reinvigorating the culture war, which I think has parallels with the UK post-Brexit. After Brexit, this was actually pretty obvious IMO. The only question was whether it was UK specific or Western. I thought Trump was a stronger contender for the presidency than many others specifically because of this culture war. The left (actually the centre, IMO) hasn't woken up to this yet:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/29/donald-trump-left-faces-new-cultural-warrior-in-battle-it-thought-won

He's also promised to wipe Isis from the face of the earth so I wouldn't count on him being a non interventionist just yet

[Rayvin 5223]

Yeah but realistically he has absolutely no means of doing that. I expect it could amount to little more than surrendering the task to Russia. That said, if he allies with Putin they'd probably end that catastrophically... so maybe you're right.

[Happy Face 29]

my first reaction to Trump's insanity isnt to pick holes in Obama's record. He got a few things wrong but you can't begin to compare the two on immigration or trade, in my opinion.

 

Trump's protectionist agenda is going to rewrite the free trade consensus that has been led by the states since the 30s and helped enrich the developing world. The consequences here could be catastrophic for the global economy.

 

Look at what Trump is doing on immigration man. You simply cannot compare to Obama there. He's barring people entering the country based on religion. We are potentially seeing one of the most dangerous periods of recent history repeating itself here.

 

Perhaps the biggest concern is his ego, temprememt and approach to twitter diplomacy. We've already seen his approach in this area end short term relations with Mexico. What if he does the same next time with a more dangerous and aggressive world leader?

 

I'm not sure how you can separate Obama's positions and how Trump is able to exploit them.  If Obama had sought to have Bush, Cheyney and the other architects of the US torture regimen punished for their crimes then Trump would not be free to advocate torture or propose it to his military or intelligence agencies.  It would be a crime presidents daren't commit.

 

We are where we are, but it seems to me the only aim right now is to get Trump out as soon as possible and protest his actions rather than the extent of all presidential power.  There should be a longer term target of rolling back many of those powers that have been bestowed over generations.

 

EDIT: and again, I agree with your fears, just think he's extending what we've seen before rather than reinventing what it means to be a president.

[Park Life 71]

rightho. i work in this reality. perhaps you should get back to your your reality of chemtrails and climate change denial. 

You think Davos is reality.

[Dr Gloom 21934]

Well it happens in the real world, yes, like climate change - not like chemtrails.

[Park Life 71]

trump is transforming the presidency. we are in completely uncharted waters with this loon in the white house. i fear the worst. hope i'm wrong, but you can hardly say his tone has softened or he's become more presidential since being sworn in, as many hoped. i don't think anyone expected half of the crazy shit he talked about on the campaign trail to actually happen but he's wasted no time laying the groundwork.

 

the immigration thing has a dystopian feeling about it; it's hard to believe it's actually happening or that it'll end well. he may not have shut the media down (yet) but he is openly going to war with it, attempting to discredit credible news organisations, while his staff are told to spread obvious lies. 

 

just look back at what he's done in his first 7 days ffs. has it really just been a week?

 

- continued to spread dangerous falsehoods that delegitimise the US electoral system 

 

- laid the groundwork for a trade war - and potentially a second great depression.

 

- signed an immigration executive order that wouldn't look out of place in nazi germany

 

- banned funding for global aid organisations that provide abortions - right on

 

- actually going ahead with his batshit crazy mexico border wall idea, and effectively ceased short term relations with his mexican counterpart. a great example of his scattergun twitter diplomacy

 

- revived the keystone pipeline - great news for the fossil fuel industry, not so much for the environment

 

- praised the use of torture and insisted waterboarding works. 

 

the free world is now being steered by a hot-headed, narcissistic demagogue, whose politics feed on fear and bigotry. give me a shout if you want more 20 year old analysis, yeah?

The free trade deals need looking at it has cost America millions of jobs and transformed entire cities back to the third world.

 

The immigration initiative is needed because all sides agree America has an immigration problem with hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants undercutting the labour market.

 

All Republicans clamp down on abortions not just Trump.

 

The Mexican Wall was a campaign promise and he won partly on the back of that.

 

The Nazi Germany thing is a far fetched cliche.

 

How is he a demagogue when the key policy will have to get through Congress and be watched over by the Senate? Again meaningless hyperbole from you...

 

I do however totally disagree with the torture issue. He is plain wrong about that. And it is completely unethical.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Park Life

[Park Life 71]

Well it happens in the real world, yes, like climate change - not like chemtrails.

The carry on at Davos is as far fetched and detached from reality of normal lives as one could get without visiting Disneyland. Career politicians with idealistic speeches (written by think tanks and PR people) that will never be acted on.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Park Life

[Park Life 71]

The main problems we have with Trump is that Bush2 and Obama crossed so many red lines with reg to oversight that as HF says he's a bit like a kid in a toy shop.

[Renton 21629]

I'm not sure how you can separate Obama's positions and how Trump is able to exploit them. If Obama had sought to have Bush, Cheyney and the other architects of the US torture regimen punished for their crimes then Trump would not be free to advocate torture or propose it to his military or intelligence agencies. It would be a crime presidents daren't commit.

 

We are where we are, but it seems to me the only aim right now is to get Trump out as soon as possible and protest his actions rather than the extent of all presidential power. There should be a longer term target of rolling back many of those powers that have been bestowed over generations.

 

EDIT: and again, I agree with your fears, just think he's extending what we've seen before rather than reinventing what it means to be a president.

Jesus wept. It's still Obama's fault in your mind. The left are going to ride to the rescue in Rayvin's mind. Fuck knows about Party's mind.

 

What's happening is fucking terrifying to any sane and reasonably enlightened person imo. Gloom is the only voice of reason here.

[Rayvin 5223]

Jesus wept. It's still Obama's fault in your mind. The left are going to ride to the rescue in Rayvin's mind. Fuck knows about Party's mind.

 

What's happening is fucking terrifying to any sane and reasonably enlightened person imo. Gloom is the only voice of reason here.

 

I'm saying they could. That the opportunity is there. It hinges on whether or not Trump is actually successful on the economic front.

 

Also, on Gloom being the voice of reason - since when has the objective voice of reason been about moving to a state of absolute panic

Edited January 29, 2017 by Rayvin

[Park Life 71]

HF just won't leave Obama alone.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Park Life

[Dr Gloom 21934]

The carry on at Davos is as far fetched and detached from reality of normal lives as one could get without visiting Disneyland. Career politicians with idealistic speeches (written by think tanks and PR people) that will never be acted on.

 

of course it is. it's an echo chamber for the global elite. is that a reason not to report on it? one of our stories this year looked at how the davos consensus has been so consistently wrong over the years, from failing to predict the financial crisis, to trump and brexit, and how this years event was overshadowed by the inauguration. the world doesn't revolve around the global elite anymore and they are no longer the centre of the universe.

 

it was striking that the main people from the US were Kerry and Biden, yesterday's men but people the davos set can talk to. hardly anyone from Trumpland was there, other than scaramucci, who did his best to assure everyone things weren't going to change that much under a trump administration - ha!

 

it\s a ridiculous event, no doubt. it is a real thing though, unlike half the unhinged bollocks you spout.

[Park Life 71]

of course it is. it's an echo chamber for the global elite. is that a reason not to report on it? one of our stories this year looked at how the davos consensus has been so consistently wrong over the years, from failing to predict the financial crisis, to trump and brexit, and how this years event was overshadowed by the inauguration. the world doesn't revolve around the global elite anymore and they are no longer the centre of the universe.

 

it was striking that the main people from the US were Kerry and Biden, yesterday's men but people the davos set can talk to. hardly anyone from Trumpland was there, other than scaramucci, who did his best to assure everyone things weren't going to change that much under a trump administration - ha!

 

it\s a ridiculous event, no doubt. it is a real thing though, unlike half the unhinged bollocks you spout.

You're not in my league son. I go light on you these days.

[Dr Gloom 21934]

The free trade deals need looking at it has cost America millions of jobs and transformed entire cities back to the third world.

 

The immigration initiative is needed because all sides agree America has an immigration problem with hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants undercutting the labour market.

 

All Republicans clamp down on abortions not just Trump.

 

The Mexican Wall was a campaign promise and he won partly on the back of that.

 

The Nazi Germany thing is a far fetched cliche.

 

How is he a demagogue when the key policy will have to get through Congress and be watched over by the Senate? Again meaningless hyperbole from you...

 

I do however totally disagree with the torture issue. He is plain wrong about that. And it is completely unethical.

 

on free trade - he's talking about slapping tariffs on china. this will start a trade war, which will harm both economies and have massive implications for the global economy. i assume you know what happened last time there was a global trade war. globalisation has unquestionably decimated some american industries. protectionism is not the answer. 

 

the nazi germany comparison is hardly a cliche. are you looking at what's happening as we write? muslim people are banned from entering the US from Middle Eastern countries, regardless as to wether they have a green card. though apparently there might later be concessions made for christian refugees from these countries. what kind of message does this send? there are direct comparisons to be made between trump's immigration policy and nazi germany, which started a similar way. 

 

the border wall was a bat shit crazy campaign pledge that few people other than his most ardent supporters thought he would enact. someone mentioned israel earlier. at least their wall, as hideous as it is, has actually led to a reduction of suicide bombings. all the wall is going to do is restrict the flow of migrants that the us economy, california in particular, depends on. 

 

demagogue: a political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.

 

 

[Dr Gloom 21934]

You're not in my league son. I go light on you these days.

 

not in your league for spouting unfounded nonsense, no doubt. 

[Dr Gloom 21934]

Jesus wept. It's still Obama's fault in your mind. The left are going to ride to the rescue in Rayvin's mind. Fuck knows about Party's mind.

 

What's happening is fucking terrifying to any sane and reasonably enlightened person imo. Gloom is the only voice of reason here.

 

every sane person in my MSM/metropolitan/SJW/corporate elite social bubble is terrified by what is unfolding in the US. i'm interviewing for the SF job tomorrow but i have serious reservations about moving there now. still, unlikely to be many slow news days, if his first 7 days is anything to go by. 

[Rayvin 5223]

 

on free trade - he's talking about slapping tariffs on china. this will start a trade war, which will harm both economies and have massive implications for the global economy. i assume you know what happened last time there was a global trade war. globalisation has unquestionably decimated some american industries. protectionism is not the answer. 

 

the nazi germany comparison is hardly a cliche. are you looking at what's happening as we write? muslim people are banned from entering the US from Middle Eastern countries, regardless as to wether they have a green card. though apparently there might later be concessions made for christian refugees from these countries. what kind of message does this send? there are direct comparisons to be made between trump's immigration policy and nazi germany, which started a similar way. 

 

the border wall was a bat shit crazy campaign pledge that few people other than his most ardent supporters thought he would enact. someone mentioned israel earlier. at least their wall, as hideous as it is, has actually led to a reduction of suicide bombings. all the wall is going to do is restrict the flow of migrants that the us economy, california in particular, depends on. 

 

demagogue: a political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.

 

 

 

 

At the moment though, he's blocking specific countries, right? So while yes, this is really about banning muslims, it's actually not specifically doing that yet. It's banning foreign nationals from certain countries.

 

Also, surely this is the only adequate response to 'Islamic terrorism' if you believe that it comes about purely from being Muslim. I don't believe that, but plenty around seem to do so.

[Happy Face 29]

Jesus wept. It's still Obama's fault in your mind..

 

 

It's a widespread and not even controversial view among liberals

 

https://freedom.press/news/how-obama-administration-laid-groundwork-trumps-coming-crackdown-press/

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/25/compromise-doesnt-work-political-opponents-chelsea-manning

 

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/obamas_neoliberal_legacy_rightward_drift_and_donald_trump_20170103

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/17/american-neoliberalism-cornel-west-2016-election

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/11/11/glenn-greenwald-trump-will-have-vast-powers-he-can-thank-democrats-for-them/?utm_term=.8695fda6f358

 

https://theintercept.com/2017/01/28/trumps-muslim-ban-is-culmination-of-war-on-terror-mentality-but-still-uniquely-shameful/

[Howay 12496]

The immigration policy is certainly incredible but I'm struggling to feel much sympathy for the media. It's not like they've been shut down, they're reporting on him negatively every chance they get. With good reason I might add. When they're no longer able to do that, I'll worry about it. But can you honestly, in your wildest dreams, consider that Trump would get away with shutting down the free press? He has the lowest approval ratings of any president ever, no chance he'd get away with it. If the White House wants to peddle absolute fallacies they're going to get called out on it. Every time they do it. And not just by the media, by literally everyone. I really don't think this is the world ending scenario that many seem to think.

 

They sensationalised Bannon's quote, IMO. If there's no need to sensationalise, why do it? The pulling of funding for international groups who support abortions was another one. Every republican president that has gone before him has done that. The democrats come in and put it in, the republicans take it out. And yet we're told that this is Trump attacking women as if its an unprecedented move. Why? To sensationalise.

They have to sensationalize what Bannon has said because people aren't seeing what Trump and his lot are doing. What Bannon and co are doing is very insidious, they're trying to create serious doubts in peoples minds as to what the media are saying. That's why they're fighting every single thing, from the crowd sizes, to the stuff about the wall, to the size of his hands. If they can create mis-trust over something as trivial as crowd sizes when it comes time for them to pass some awful legislation they can discredit the medias coverage of it and claim it as over the top fear mongering from the fake news. You can blame the media for sensationalizing things, creating issues that Trumps lot are now using, etc but the point still stands that what Trump and that are trying to do is pretty fucking scary.

 

The only way a lot of people take in information now is if it is given via an attention grabbing headline, something you can again blame media people for but it still doesn't make what they are saying untrue, they just may be stretching the impact. Aye the abortion funding issue has been changing in and out depending on the administration but it has been around 8-9 years since it was the way it was now, a lot has changed and you would have hoped people would have advanced, you'd hope in 2017 we'd not be fighting over something like that. That is why they bring it up, it's backwards and shouldn't be an issue in 2017 but a bloke has been brought in with this backwards looking outlook and while he said all of this when he was surging to power they still need to make points of everything he does. 

[Howay 12496]

At the moment though, he's blocking specific countries, right? So while yes, this is really about banning muslims, it's actually not specifically doing that yet. It's banning foreign nationals from certain countries.

 

Also, surely this is the only adequate response to 'Islamic terrorism' if you believe that it comes about purely from being Muslim. I don't believe that, but plenty around seem to do so.

That's what makes it all the more bizarre and concerning. It's from seven countries, and as Gloom says it has even included green card holders so it's completely fucking illegal. A federal judge has opposed it so I think it's now all pending again. It's something he has brought in to placate his racist following, that is what I find disturbing. It's not borne of any real (albeit racist and bizarre) hope to protect the country. 

 

Similar to the wall, it's a stunt. Very few illegal immigrants come into the country via running over the border, the vast majority come in on visas and just never leave. These orders are just hugely inconveniencing, racist, wastes of money.

[Renton 21629]

Christians and other ethnic groups can still travel from these countries. The only atrocity I can remember perpetrated from foreign Muslims was 9/11 and the previous WTC attack. Nearly exclusively Saudis, who are not on the list. Funny that.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Renton

[Renton 21629]

That's what makes it all the more bizarre and concerning. It's from seven countries, and as Gloom says it has even included green card holders so it's completely fucking illegal. A federal judge has opposed it so I think it's now all pending again. It's something he has brought in to placate his racist following, that is what I find disturbing. It's not borne of any real (albeit racist and bizarre) hope to protect the country.

 

Similar to the wall, it's a stunt. Very few illegal immigrants come into the country via running over the border, the vast majority come in on visas and just never leave. These orders are just hugely inconveniencing, racist, wastes of money.

It's almost as if he is trying to stir up hatred and aggravate an attack......