Vladimir Putin and Russia

[Renton 21402]

14 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Bits of paper be damned.

 

If you want to live in a rule based world you can't pick and choose your rules though. It's like the UK still expecting preferential treatment after Brexit. But yeah, I accept if it had been Finland then they would have been regarded part as NATO de facto. Rules are different for Ukraine as they were only 20 odd years post soviet in 2014.

 

I think though Ukraine has been helped enormously by NATO allies through arms and very importantly intelligence. And sanctions. The only thing we didn't supply was actual man power. A proportionate response perhaps. 

[Monkeys Fist 42144]

Assuming it all goes well, I wonder what the average Ukrainian will think about the Western response, also assuming we stay out of the “boots in the ground” side of it? 
 

Grateful for the help, resentment we didn’t send troops, a bit of both? 

[Renton 21402]

6 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

Assuming it all goes well, I wonder what the average Ukrainian will think about the Western response, also assuming we stay out of the “boots in the ground” side of it? 
 

Grateful for the help, resentment we didn’t send troops, a bit of both? 

 

There's also several million temporarily (hopefully) housed in Western Europe. They will join the EU and prosper imo. We don't dislike the yanks despite only joining WW2 after they were attacked. 

[Alex 34934]

Speak for yourself 

[Rayvin 5187]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

 

If you want to live in a rule based world you can't pick and choose your rules though. It's like the UK still expecting preferential treatment after Brexit. But yeah, I accept if it had been Finland then they would have been regarded part as NATO de facto. Rules are different for Ukraine as they were only 20 odd years post soviet in 2014.

 

I think though Ukraine has been helped enormously by NATO allies through arms and very importantly intelligence. And sanctions. The only thing we didn't supply was actual man power. A proportionate response perhaps. 

 

That bit of paper is a technicality is my point. I don't believe (but could be wrong) that the treaty specifically forbids NATO to come to the aid of any country unless it is attacked first. If it does have that stipulation then Iraq was all the more egregious.

 

But that said, even if NATO itself would have been incapable of acting, the fact remains that the individual nations of Europe and North America could have chosen to do so anyway, and instead hid behind this technicality.

 

Maybe they were right to do so, but if Putin drops a nuke anyway then they were categorically wrong IMO.

 

I feel we should have done more. We are Putin's enemy, not Ukraine.

[Rayvin 5187]

1 hour ago, Monkeys Fist said:

Assuming it all goes well, I wonder what the average Ukrainian will think about the Western response, also assuming we stay out of the “boots in the ground” side of it? 
 

Grateful for the help, resentment we didn’t send troops, a bit of both? 

 

Fair question, not sure. I assume many will understand the nuclear threat (which they would almost certainly take the brunt of) and maybe be glad we stayed back, assuming they win.

 

Those who lost people will be angrier with us I suppose. They'll have earned the right to respond however they wish, I think.

[Dr Gloom 21859]

32 minutes ago, Alex said:

Speak for yourself 

i love how it’s still fine to offensive about Americans. And Australians, obvs

[Renton 21402]

28 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

We are Putin's enemy, not Ukraine.

 

That's a stretch like. Ukaraine is not an unfortunate bystander in this, they have chosen to align themselves with the West and the EU and turn their back on Mother Russia, hence Putin's rage. They're perfectly entitled to do this of course. They will prosper long-term if we aren't all dead by then. 

Edited October 8, 2022 by Renton

[Tom 14011]

Russia going mad with rumours of a coup...

[Gemmill 44525]

 

 

 

[Sonatine 11329]

 

[Gemmill 44525]

 

 

 

NOT NOW KATO! 

 

 

[Alex 34934]

4 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

 

 

NOT NOW KATO! 

 

 

Fired one over Japan without warning the other day didn’t they? The crazy bastard is obviously feeling left out

Edited October 8, 2022 by Alex

[Ginolaandtonic 169]

To be fair it must be kind of frustrating having all those missiles and weapons but being told you’re not allowed to use them.

I mean, what’s the point of being boss?

[Tom 14011]

Aye to be fair though those lads could have been aiming anywhere  

[RobinRobin 11162]

On 08/10/2022 at 23:03, Dr Gloom said:

i love how it’s still fine to offensive about Americans. And Australians, obvs

Obvs 

[ohhh_yeah 2952]

 

 

 

 

[ohhh_yeah 2952]

 

https://www.twitter.com/BMVg_Bundeswehr/status/1579427132367048706

 

[Kitman 2204]

I recall Putin’s justification for the “special operation” was de-nazification of Ukraine. Based on how the Russians have behaved, I can’t see any difference between them and the Nazis, leaving aside the Holocaust of course.

[Rayvin 5187]

48 minutes ago, Kitman said:

I recall Putin’s justification for the “special operation” was de-nazification of Ukraine. Based on how the Russians have behaved, I can’t see any difference between them and the Nazis, leaving aside the Holocaust of course.

 

I think that's fair. Especially when you factor in that they're stealing Ukrainian children for re-education, committing war crimes, and many other things that seem to approximate with the rough definition of genocide.

[Kitman 2204]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I think that's fair. Especially when you factor in that they're stealing Ukrainian children for re-education, committing war crimes, and many other things that seem to approximate with the rough definition of genocide.

Yes. And you could add to that annexing territory by force based on the notion of Russian-ness, looting and destruction of cultural and historical artefacts, recruitment of violent criminals into the army (which reminds me of the Dirlewanger brigade), plundering of grain stores to fund the war in ukraine, the list goes on.  And thats just the stuff we know about and without getting into the deliberate bombing of civilians or use of rape and torture. The cruelty and indiscriminate brutality of the Russians is horrifying and looks no different to what the Nazis dished out in Poland and Russia. It feels like that to me anyway.

[RobinRobin 11162]

2 hours ago, Kitman said:

Yes. And you could add to that annexing territory by force based on the notion of Russian-ness, looting and destruction of cultural and historical artefacts, recruitment of violent criminals into the army (which reminds me of the Dirlewanger brigade), plundering of grain stores to fund the war in ukraine, the list goes on.  And thats just the stuff we know about and without getting into the deliberate bombing of civilians or use of rape and torture. The cruelty and indiscriminate brutality of the Russians is horrifying and looks no different to what the Nazis dished out in Poland and Russia. It feels like that to me anyway.

Definitely an irony-free zone in Putin's mind

[ohhh_yeah 2952]

 

 

[Ginolaandtonic 169]

I thought Putin was all but defeated a couple of weeks ago....

 

It’s always unwise to count your chickens

[ewerk 30382]

He is defeated. The recent attacks aren’t about gaining ground but about causing maximum disruption and carnage.