Vladimir Putin and Russia

[Renton 21114]

26 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Yeah, we did fuck all when he annexed Crimea - that was the test case. 
 

I doubt Putin would have invaded if NATO had put a no fly zone in place. Countless Ukrainian (and Russian) lIves would have been saved. 

 

Honestly your drawing huge conclusions there based on nothing. To establish a no fly zone you effectively have to take out all ground based air defence, which would include those on Russian soil. You can't say with confidence that wouldn't escalate things further and you can't be confident it would have deterred Putin who has not been acting intelligently or even rationally.

 

I think the west has played this as best they could so far (I mean the present conflict, I don't know enough about Crimea to even comment. Do any of us, is there even a post on it?).

 

[Renton 21114]

2 hours ago, Gemmill said:

Here dicklips, never mind your "well what would you like us to do?!" patter. I'm just saying I find it very difficult to be comfortable with the idea that being passive observers is the right play when kids are dying of dehydration, and people are drinking from puddles and reportedly eating stray dogs. I don't know what the answer is any more than you do. 

 

A bit unnecessary this like. As if anyone likes what is happening in Ukraine.

 

I don't think we're exactly passive observers in though. We're (the west) are supplying Ukraine with weapons they can win the war with, have put sanctions on Russia which will ruin their economy, are rapidly going to wean ourselves off Russian energy to ruin their future rvonkmy and war machine, and have isolated them in sport and culture. Besides engaging them in conflict and risking WW3 I don't know what else we can do. If WW3 were to happen, it would be worse for billions, including Ukrainians, surely.

[Tom 14011]

It’s easy to feel like you’re not in control, because you’re not. The world is absolutely chaotic at the moment. It’s horrible, it’s depressing, it’s sad. 

 

If you find yourself thinking “there’s little I can do about it” then do the little thing. That’s your control over the situation. 
 

So make a donation to the British Red Cross or another appropriate organisation. Put together some necessary items for Ukrainian refugees and donate them to somewhere who will handle them responsibly.  
 

The small thing is all we can do about things at the moment & anything beyond that, apropos escalation is terrifying beyond belief. 

[ohhh_yeah 2930]

 

 

 

[Gemmill 44166]

6 hours ago, Renton said:

 

A bit unnecessary this like. As if anyone likes what is happening in Ukraine.

 

I don't think we're exactly passive observers in though. We're (the west) are supplying Ukraine with weapons they can win the war with, have put sanctions on Russia which will ruin their economy, are rapidly going to wean ourselves off Russian energy to ruin their future rvonkmy and war machine, and have isolated them in sport and culture. Besides engaging them in conflict and risking WW3 I don't know what else we can do. If WW3 were to happen, it would be worse for billions, including Ukrainians, surely.

 

I'm not suggesting that anyone likes it. Where have you got that from? 

 

Not everything is an argument that needs to be won. Me saying "I find it difficult to watch/hear/read what I'm seeing in Ukraine and simultaneously hold the belief that the West is doing the right thing" wasn't meant to be seen as a challenge for you to take on. Which is why I told you to do one with that shite. 

[ohhh_yeah 2930]

 

 

[Dr Gloom 21767]

9 hours ago, Renton said:

 

A bit unnecessary this like. As if anyone likes what is happening in Ukraine.

 

I don't think we're exactly passive observers in though. We're (the west) are supplying Ukraine with weapons they can win the war with, have put sanctions on Russia which will ruin their economy, are rapidly going to wean ourselves off Russian energy to ruin their future rvonkmy and war machine, and have isolated them in sport and culture. Besides engaging them in conflict and risking WW3 I don't know what else we can do. If WW3 were to happen, it would be worse for billions, including Ukrainians, surely.

I feel like we have let down a European democracy by allowing the bully to do as he pleased. We all knew this was coming. Putin invaded because he knew Nato would do fuck all after he went in. Perhaps he’d have thought again if we’d got ahead of the game - because then there would have been devastating consequences. Just as Nato isn’t getting involved now Putin has invaded because it would result in WWIII.

 

I’m not saying establishing a no fly zone would have definitely prevented a conflict. But it might have. Now our only option is to continue to helplessly stand by and watch the slaughter.  

[Renton 21114]

3 hours ago, Gemmill said:

 

I'm not suggesting that anyone likes it. Where have you got that from? 

 

Not everything is an argument that needs to be won. Me saying "I find it difficult to watch/hear/read what I'm seeing in Ukraine and simultaneously hold the belief that the West is doing the right thing" wasn't meant to be seen as a challenge for you to take on. Which is why I told you to do one with that shite. 

And i was genuinely interested in what more you thought we should do. The lat thing I want right now is an argument. I don't have any answers. My only point was that things have gone better for Ukraine so far than i had feared early days. And much worse for Russia. Makes me think our actions are corectly balanced. Stilll terrible for many Ukrainians though, obviously. 

[scoobos 297]

Ok, Im going to post something honest here, I hope it doesn't offend anyone too much - but hopefully, I hope someone can also sympathise with the view - only because I feel a bit like a "uncaring outlier" at the moment. This has nothing to do with the ownership of NUFC , it's co-incidence only that I mention it.

I think that Propagandas is everywhere, on both sides. All this "Ukraine 100% good guy, Russia 100% bad guy" , is dangerous imo. Ukraine does have an awful history at how it treats non whites and minorities - but conversely, I don't believe they are all neo nazis like Putin is peddling. But to say they are not a racist nation etc , like the papers are doing now, is denial. 

 

Pre-2022 coverage:
Ukraine face potential racism sanctions - Federation | Reuters
Ukraine conflict: Refugees in their own country - BBC News
 

The hypocrisy of our media and government appals me, it's also scary how easy it is to "change" the internet.

Try this:

is ukraine a racist country at DuckDuckGo (dated before 2022)
Top hit: In Modern Ukraine, People of Color Need Not Apply | | Observer
Today -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Ukraine 

That said, I'd rather our response was what it is to the Ukraine (selling weapons to the attacked, rather than the aggressor) , than it is to Saudi Arabia and the Yemen. 

Can anyone explain the difference to me please?

 

17 billion worth of planes, bombs and other weapons of mass destruction from 2015 to 2019 and UK authorised £1.4bn of arms sales to Saudi Arabia after exports resumed | Arms trade | The Guardian , this year.

Chemical weapons a "red line" - not for us selling - as long is its in DIY kit form. -> Saudi Arabia's use of British weapons in Yemen to be investigated by Parliamentary commission | The Independent | The Independent ("Sir John Stanley, CAEC had a strong record for holding to ministers to account and exposing flaws in the arms control system, including a decision by the Coalition to allow the export to Syria of substances that could have been used for the production of chemical weapons."
Saudi Arabia used chemical weapons in Yemen—who’s going to bomb them? – Veterans Today | Military Foreign Affairs Policy Journal for Clandestine Services

I'm by no means being an apologist, but fucking nora it makes me sick. Give me a reason other than it being Europeans , culture , or skin colour. 

As horrible as this sounds, I think the western response might actually need to scale back a bit - When we have Biden, Boris and Liz Truss on the microphone - it literally scares the shit out of me that they will push this madman over the edge. Boris definitely ramped up the rhetoric at the time of partygate and that terrified me. 

I know its kitsch to say - but we really do seem to have the worst set of leaders at the worst time. The only positive for me , is that China has hidden behind the curtain.

Last rant - when did it become acceptable to show killings and dead bodies on mainstream TV and news? The soldiers are human beings on both sides and they will think they are doing the right thing - they are victims as much as everyone else. These are real human beings with parents and its awful to see the BBC airing things like Ukrainians gloating over the train carriages full of dead russian bodies they have - family might see that!

Finally, hope this hasn't angered anyone - Its not the intention, its more for debate around the dangers of polarisation / internet news.

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by scoobos

[scoobos 297]

3 hours ago, Dr Gloom said:

I feel like we have let down a European democracy by allowing the bully to do as he pleased. We all knew this was coming. Putin invaded because he knew Nato would do fuck all after he went in. Perhaps he’d have thought again if we’d got ahead of the game - because then there would have been devastating consequences. Just as Nato isn’t getting involved now Putin has invaded because it would result in WWIII.

 

I’m not saying establishing a no fly zone would have definitely prevented a conflict. But it might have. Now our only option is to continue to helplessly stand by and watch the slaughter.  

I'm saying that , if we established a no fly zone, we'd have full scale war. No doubt about that in my mind whatsoever.

Putin is a madman and his regime is fucking horrific, but , in honesty, so are many of the Wests. Our targets are just "far away" or black. We need a change across the board, and genuine democracy does seem the answer, but where is it? Certainly not in the UK (FPTP and media is pretty much "state owned" when its all doners to the current party in power) - USA or Russia. Judging by the last decade - our "average joe" has become a heartless consumer with no thought of the human cost of the needless things we are being conditioned to think we need for a good life.

We've supported, funded and assisted attacks just like the one on Ukraine - but we get other actors to do our dirty work for us. We call it for "democracy" but. my personal view , is its for energy or resources every time. We even have access to Saudi military planning and see the attacks in advance and they ARE on civilians , hospitals, electicity , water etc - but as we dont have any power over "choosing the targets" its ok? 

[Renton 21114]

10 minutes ago, scoobos said:

. Give me a reason other than it being Europeans , culture , or skin colour. 

 

Proximity.

Likelihood of escalation into something that will materially affect us. Maybe kill us 

 

I think they're pretty good reasons tbh. I'm not well informed by the war in Yemen, which I know isn't a territorial invasion, so that's one difference. But from what I've read of the Houthis they are no friends of us and I wouldn't want them as neighbours. This is there flag.

 

"Allah is Greater, Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews, Victory to Islam"

 

 

[scoobos 297]

But thats also propoganda . It's a tiny world nowadays I'm not sure the neighbour thing goes.

If we redline Chemical weapons, or bombing civlians and talk about atrocities, then how can we profit from it?

Read on Yemen, if you are interested, its very eye opening to the true cost of our societies.

Finally, ask yourself a question - if you grew up with 40-50 years of oppression and murder at the hands of "US/Isreal" agents , would you want death to america and Isreal?

Everything is so complex, by me writing this I'm not saying the US / Isreal is bad (well maybe Isreal)  - but that's a clear invasion of land - as was Iraq . 

Conversely, we seem to hear little about France's "war on terror" done very differently to ours , but what they have done in Mali should be a gold standard imo, risk fighters lives, not civilians. They've had a 10 year war with minimal civilian casualties. (5 in 6 months of war during is the highest validated number, but 19 at a wedding is claimed). They didnt try to land grab, or instill "democracy" they've just fought the enemy. British view is still that they are surrender monkeys in most terms - when their military has easily outperformed the superpowers of the USA and Russia in that theatre.

There's always 2 sides and the people on the ground, like you and me, are nearly always decent human beings until bad things happen to them. 

War is fucking horrible and taking sides just leads to more war. We need co-operation, dialogue and shared experiences, not competition and demonisation of anyone with a different world view. 

 

Edited March 26, 2022 by scoobos
bad quote on civ casualties in Mali. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/30/deaths-of-19-civilians-in-french-airstrike-in-mali-disputed-by-paris

[Dr Gloom 21767]

34 minutes ago, scoobos said:

I'm saying that , if we established a no fly zone, we'd have full scale war. No doubt about that in my mind whatsoever.

Putin is a madman and his regime is fucking horrific, but , in honesty, so are many of the Wests. Our targets are just "far away" or black. We need a change across the board, and genuine democracy does seem the answer, but where is it? Certainly not in the UK (FPTP and media is pretty much "state owned" when its all doners to the current party in power) - USA or Russia. Judging by the last decade - our "average joe" has become a heartless consumer with no thought of the human cost of the needless things we are being conditioned to think we need for a good life.

We've supported, funded and assisted attacks just like the one on Ukraine - but we get other actors to do our dirty work for us. We call it for "democracy" but. my personal view , is its for energy or resources every time. We even have access to Saudi military planning and see the attacks in advance and they ARE on civilians , hospitals, electicity , water etc - but as we dont have any power over "choosing the targets" its ok? 

It’s too late now to establish a no fly zone, I agree. Had the west done so before the invasion, this conflict might have been averted. It may also have escalated things but when you look at the devastating situation in Ukraine and the risks of things escalating further anyway, I think it was a risk worth taking. 

 

As for the whaboutery in the rest of your post, I don’t think anyone on this board has ever defended western imperialism. This board was united in disgust against the wars in iraq and Afghanistan bar a couple of WUMs who are no longer with us. But we’re not talking about that now are we? We’re talking about the appalling actions of the Russians.  

 

Western democracies are far from perfect but I know which side I’m on. It’s not with the fascist shithouse in the kremlin.  

Edited March 26, 2022 by Dr Gloom

[scoobos 297]

Yeah - I dont think its worth taking a risk with a man whos clearly unhinged / deranged with a Nuclear war , myself. That's my reality here.

I dont mean whataboutism by the way - Yemen is now - its not a past thing and its , in my view almost directly comparable to Russia and Ukraine. A BS manufactured reason to try a land grab for historical reasons.

All the "atrocities" we are seeing in the news are / have been happening there - to this day - that's my point I think.

This "US vs Them" is manufactured crap imo. I dont want to take sides because I'm being told to either.  Interesting that you use the term facism for Russia and not Ukraine, who both have equally facist backgrounds.

Fascism Returns to Ukraine | The New Republic
Ukraine's Toxic History of Fascism and Ethnic Cleansing | History News Network
Is Ukraine Fascist? | HuffPost null

(The huff post is a bit ambigous, but this kind of strikes the point: Svoboda's approach to ethnic relations has been termed fascist but in point of fact it is strikingly similar to official policy in Estonia, Latvia and Israel. In effect, Svoboda aspires to create a "lite" version of what Israeli scholar Oren Yiftachel calls an "ethnocracy," a system of rule within which the titular nation holds a position of dominance over the other nations inhabiting the land, such as Estonians and Latvians vis-à-vis Russians or Jews vis-à-vis Palestinians. As the Baltic and Israeli examples show, ethnocracies can be democratic, but they're obviously not as democratic as liberal democracies and, with their penchant for hierarchy, can easily violate the civil rights of minorities."

I'm not trying to defend anyone - I'm sticking to the same line - its not black and white and being polarised only fuels this conflict imo.

If we want change and for these atrocities to stop happening , we need a global uprising the like of which we've never seen - not virtue signalling that we care about 1 country and turn a blind eye to 5 others.

Syria , Sudan, Yemen, Nigeria are all proxy wars with actors from all sides. It's not whataboutism , going back 20 years - this is TODAY. Can you spot the difference between caring about those 4 and caring about Ukraine?

Disclaimer as usual, I'm not arguing with any passion etc - just debating , I'm friends with all here. 

Edited March 26, 2022 by scoobos

[Dr Gloom 21767]

I think the free world, despite its flaws, is worth fighting for. It’s the side I pick. And I pick it despite these fact we have supported despots to fight in proxy wars all over the world. 

 

Fascism is an existential threat. I applaud the Ukrainians who would rather die on their feet than live on their knees. These are people who want to be included in our clubs. They don’t want to be part of a new soviet empire. 

NATO saw it coming and chose to let it happen. It gives the lie to all the posturing propaganda we indulge in about promoting and protecting democracy. 
 

Where does pragmatic appeasement in the face if authoritative aggression end? Is an invasion of a NATO country the red line. Or would the west react if other non-nato countries such as Finland were targeted? 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Dr Gloom

[Dr Gloom 21767]

Ukraine is very different to Russia. That isn’t up for debate is it?

[scoobos 297]

24 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

Is an invasion of a NATO country the red line.

Yes, that's the point of NATO. 

Arming Ukraine and member states interfering in the internal politics of non member states,  is not.

This is old news - but this is the "other side" to how free a state Ukraine is. 

Official results: 97 percent of Crimea voters back joining Russia - CBS News

Crimeans voted over 97% in favor of being russian. 

Then what? Yup, you guessed it - US interference .

It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war | Seumas Milne | The Guardian

And then we have the annex by the Russians.

Then we have sabre rattling and escalation when Putin shows his hand - in the case of the UK - to give our Shithouse PM an out for being a cunt.

Nothing justifies Russia's actions right now NOTHING - but conversely - denying history and not taking a look at how the West and NATO have played a part in this , and saying we are "Free" and fair is dangerous imo. This is a battle of super powers - and if history shows us anything its that "super powers" are dangerous and that the level of power they hold perverts all who lead them.

Preachy and I have no answer, but I'm pretty sure "more war" isn't the answer - and NATO escalating in a non member country would assure that.

We need global co-operation and a new world order imo - all this is detracting from the destruction of our habitat and the overriding belief in greed and "good and evil".

lol, im off my soapbox as I'm cringing at myself here , and also people are dying while I write some of this contentious stuff (but devil and angel on the shoulder - so are they in Yemen , and Nigeria, and down the cadmium mines at 8 years old for our fucking technologies).

I think I'll fuck off and do something in nature for a bit .. 

Edit -> this weeks panaroma is worth a watch if you have the stomach for it. It's harrowing.

Edited March 26, 2022 by scoobos
panorama

[PaddockLad 16995]

10 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

I think the free world, despite its flaws, is worth fighting for. It’s the side I pick. And I pick it despite these fact we have supported depots to fight in proxy wars all over the world. 

 

Fascism is an existential threat. I applaud the Ukrainians who would rather die on their feet than live on their knees. These are people who want to be included in our clubs. They don’t want to be part of a new soviet empire. 

NATO saw it coming and chose to let it happen. It gives the lie to all the posturing propaganda we indulge in about promoting and protecting democracy. 
 

Where does pragmatic appeasement in the face if authoritative aggression end? Is an invasion of a NATO country the red line. Or would the west react if other non-nato countries such as Finland were targeted? 

 

If a NATO ally is attacked Russia has nuclear weapons to threaten Westerm Europe with 

 

If a NATO ally isn't attacked Russia still has nuclear weapons to threaten Western Europe with

 

If we let Russia and Ukraine fight it out for the next decade (at least) the population  of Ukraine would empty out into Western Europe. 2.5 million have already left in a month. 

 

I have no idea what anyone's best move is but I do think that an eventual confrontation between NATO and Russia is inevitable . Get it over with soon. The nuclear trigger isn't physically in Putins hands. Try to destroy the infrastructure that controls it? Hes finished anyway... Destroy all Russian positions in Ukraine from the air. Pilots will obviously die . Better them than 1000s of Ukrainian civilians? At least they know what they signed up for. I'm no military expert but I can't see any other way of stopping a protracted conflict and the resultant tide of human misery washing up across the globe...some nettles need to be grasped at NATO and at the EU

[scoobos 297]

25 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

 

 

Fascism is an existential threat. 

 

So is catastrophic climate change - yet our Governments say that we need to consume, chase economic growth and increase GDP and the clear majority of the populace believe it and follow it. We serve the nation by putting GDP first, arguably?

We voted out of the union on nationalist and arguably racist terms.

If you want anything different you are a Communist , "Lefty" or enemy.

Now I know this ISNT facism, but it's certainly on the spectrum :
 

ok, im timing myself out here, I think I'm going mad with all the stress of the world !


 

[scoobos 297]

4 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

 

Get it over with soon. The nuclear trigger isn't physically in Putins hands. Try to destroy the infrastructure that controls it? 

Careful what you wish for, and the last bit is impossible.

When Russia said they'd upped the nuclear status - it means they activated this:

Dead Hand - Wikipedia

Nuclear war is the end of us, even if its one fucking bomb. The "small" Tactical nukes are 10's if not 100's of times more powerful than Hiroshima. We've a fucking climate crisis going on.

We need an information war - good on the BBC for joining the dark web and onion sites - let the Russians rise up - they will. No one is born a cunt.

Or, lets get him assassinated.

[PaddockLad 16995]

11 minutes ago, scoobos said:

Careful what you wish for, and the last bit is impossible.

When Russia said they'd upped the nuclear status - it means they activated this:

Dead Hand - Wikipedia

Nuclear war is the end of us, even if its one fucking bomb. The "small" Tactical nukes are 10's if not 100's of times more powerful than Hiroshima. We've a fucking climate crisis going on.

We need an information war - good on the BBC for joining the dark web and onion sites - let the Russians rise up - they will. No one is born a cunt.

Or, lets get him assassinated.

 

 

Perhaps you're right. Or perhaps all Cold War era technology is in the same state of readiness as the Russian armed forces. It looks like nothing has had a service since 1989. NATO intelligence will know.  But I think the refugee situation by this time next year, should NATO continue to sit on its hands, will force a change of policy of some description.  They'll have to stop the exodus somehow.....

[Rayvin 5151]

5 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

 

 

Perhaps you're right. Or perhaps all Cold War era technology is in the same state of readiness as the Russian armed forces. It looks like nothing has had a service since 1989. NATO intelligence will know.  But I think the refugee situation by this time next year, should NATO continue to sit on its hands, will force a change of policy of some description.  They'll have to stop the exodus somehow.....

 

Yes that whole issue will have serious domestic ramifications clearly. The longer it goes on  the more will come and the higher the associated costs become. You're quite right, it could force some hands.

[Dr Gloom 21767]

36 minutes ago, scoobos said:

Yes, that's the point of NATO. 

Arming Ukraine and member states interfering in the internal politics of non member states,  is not.

This is old news - but this is the "other side" to how free a state Ukraine is. 

Official results: 97 percent of Crimea voters back joining Russia - CBS News

Crimeans voted over 97% in favor of being russian. 

Then what? Yup, you guessed it - US interference .

It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war | Seumas Milne | The Guardian

And then we have the annex by the Russians.

Then we have sabre rattling and escalation when Putin shows his hand - in the case of the UK - to give our Shithouse PM an out for being a cunt.

Nothing justifies Russia's actions right now NOTHING - but conversely - denying history and not taking a look at how the West and NATO have played a part in this , and saying we are "Free" and fair is dangerous imo. This is a battle of super powers - and if history shows us anything its that "super powers" are dangerous and that the level of power they hold perverts all who lead them.

Preachy and I have no answer, but I'm pretty sure "more war" isn't the answer - and NATO escalating in a non member country would assure that.

We need global co-operation and a new world order imo - all this is detracting from the destruction of our habitat and the overriding belief in greed and "good and evil".

lol, im off my soapbox as I'm cringing at myself here , and also people are dying while I write some of this contentious stuff (but devil and angel on the shoulder - so are they in Yemen , and Nigeria, and down the cadmium mines at 8 years old for our fucking technologies).

I think I'll fuck off and do something in nature for a bit .. 

Edit -> this weeks panaroma is worth a watch if you have the stomach for it. It's harrowing.

i stopped reading when you linked to a Seumas Milne oped, sorry. 

[Dr Gloom 21767]

32 minutes ago, scoobos said:

So is catastrophic climate change - yet our Governments say that we need to consume, chase economic growth and increase GDP and the clear majority of the populace believe it and follow it. We serve the nation by putting GDP first, arguably?

We voted out of the union on nationalist and arguably racist terms.

If you want anything different you are a Communist , "Lefty" or enemy.

Now I know this ISNT facism, but it's certainly on the spectrum :
 

ok, im timing myself out here, I think I'm going mad with all the stress of the world !


 

we also should be taking stronger action on climate change. 

[PaddockLad 16995]

7 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

i stopped reading when you linked to a Seumas Milne oped, sorry. 

 

They still think Russia = "idealistic socialist utopia" instead of the fascist pariah gangster state its been for 30 years,  the fuckin stupid bastards