Vladimir Putin and Russia

[Tom 14011]

1 hour ago, Monkeys Fist said:

Not entirely sure John had much to say about that, mind. 

I think he said 

 

"uggghhhh....arerrghhh....bastard!"

[Monkeys Fist 42456]

9 minutes ago, Tom said:

I think he said 

 

"uggghhhh....arerrghhh....bastard!"

Whilst calling over Yoko so he could slap her one last time? 

[Ginolaandtonic 169]

2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

I always refer people to Brendan Cox on this. His wife (Jo Cox, MP) was murdered by a right wing terrorist - the right itself in this instance would have to throw their hands up and say "well, he was just evil, nothing anyone could have done". Cox on the other hand publicly forgave the man and called for greater understanding into the root causes of social division. He held true to his principles because he understood that the man who killed his wife had been turned into a vehicle for murder by right wing propaganda focused on hate.

 

To call that man an animal and write him off is to take our eye off the real reason for her death. The politics and media of the right wing - and we have to stand in defiance of their hatred and insecurity day in and day out to prevent society collapsing around us.

 

Politically driven murder is a tiny fraction of all murders. It’s also not exclusive to any one side of the political spectrum.

 

If you feel that you could forgive somebody (for example) raping or murdering a loved one then that’s your prerogative.

 

Millions of people don’t feel that way and that is perfectly ok too.

 

 

 

[Ginolaandtonic 169]

1 hour ago, Monkeys Fist said:

Whilst calling over Yoko so he could slap her one last time? 

 

And made immortal by Britney 18 short years later.

[Rayvin 5223]

30 minutes ago, Ginolaandtonic said:

 

Politically driven murder is a tiny fraction of all murders. It’s also not exclusive to any one side of the political spectrum.

 

If you feel that you could forgive somebody (for example) raping or murdering a loved one then that’s your prerogative.

 

Millions of people don’t feel that way and that is perfectly ok too.

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying they have to forgive, goalpost shifter, I'm saying they have to accept that these people are human and stop running away from why these things happen because it's "easier" to just rage and hate and see them as less than human. That attitude is what causes this in the first place frankly. Only the left actually tries to do anything meaningful in tackling crime because only the left tries to understand it. And I say left generously here, what I mean is the centre, the left, and really anyone with any actual common sense. Notably excludes significant swathes of the right who prefer to respond emotionally and assume criminals are "evil" and "animals", words which remove any responsibility from society for doing anything to prevent it.

 

Further case in point - domestic violence. Have mentioned this before but nonetheless - I worked with a counselling charity to help them with their sustainability, and the CEO told me that in the fight against domestic violence, they'd save more women if money was being spent on helping the men who were violent. Unfortunately, she went on, there is no political will to do so because society can't stomach the idea of helping such people. The consequence of that backwards social attitude, is more women suffering domestic violence.

 

This isn't the thread for this anyway and I apologise to everyone for de-railing it, but my original point is that Putin conscripting criminals to go and die in Ukraine outrages me no less than any of the others he's forcing to go and die for his right wing, authoritarian, populist bullshit. Those people are human and he's treating them as playthings in the same way he's treating everyone else.

[Ginolaandtonic 169]

18 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I'm not saying they have to forgive, goalpost shifter, I'm saying they have to accept that these people are human and stop running away from why these things happen because it's "easier" to just rage and hate and see them as less than human. That attitude is what causes this in the first place frankly. Only the left actually tries to do anything meaningful in tackling crime because only the left tries to understand it. And I say left generously here, what I mean is the centre, the left, and really anyone with any actual common sense. Notably excludes significant swathes of the right who prefer to respond emotionally and assume criminals are "evil" and "animals", words which remove any responsibility from society for doing anything to prevent it.

 

Further case in point - domestic violence. Have mentioned this before but nonetheless - I worked with a counselling charity to help them with their sustainability, and the CEO told me that in the fight against domestic violence, they'd save more women if money was being spent on helping the men who were violent. Unfortunately, she went on, there is no political will to do so because society can't stomach the idea of helping such people. The consequence of that backwards social attitude, is more women suffering domestic violence.

 

This isn't the thread for this anyway and I apologise to everyone for de-railing it, but my original point is that Putin conscripting criminals to go and die in Ukraine outrages me no less than any of the others he's forcing to go and die for his right wing, authoritarian, populist bullshit. Those people are human and he's treating them as playthings in the same way he's treating everyone else.

 

So is Putin human and worth our understanding? How about Boris Johnson?

 

 

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, Ginolaandtonic said:

 

So is Putin human and worth our understanding? How about Boris Johnson?

 

 

 

And Hitler, yes. Understanding how these people come to be, what drives them and why they have such rampant disregard for those around them would go a long way to better equipping society to prevent them getting into the positions of power that they do. Doesn't mean they aren't human. It is especially important, in fact, that we regard them as human. Even Jordan Peterson made this point man.

 

Did you really think you were going to 'gotcha' me with this for fuck's sake. This is a deeply held principle that I have spent many hours thinking on and challenging myself with.

[Ginolaandtonic 169]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

And Hitler, yes. Understanding how these people come to be, what drives them and why they have such rampant disregard for those around them would go a long way to better equipping society to prevent them getting into the positions of power that they do. Doesn't mean they aren't human. It is especially important, in fact, that we regard them as human. Even Jordan Peterson made this point man.

 

Did you really think you were going to 'gotcha' me with this for fuck's sake. This is a deeply held principle that I have spent many hours thinking on and challenging myself with.

 

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen posts from you wishing all kinds of harm on various political foes.

 

 

 

 

[Rayvin 5223]

3 minutes ago, Ginolaandtonic said:

 

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen posts from you wishing all kinds of harm on various political foes.

 

 

 

 

 

The only time I would ever advocate for a physically harmful action is if it's the only way to prevent someone hurting others. So for instance, I could get on board with Putin being assassinated since we appear to have no other mechanism to get rid of him, and he's killing thousands. That said though, if he stood down and was tried for war crimes, I wouldn't want him executed.

 

I don't remember posting that, but it's possible because it's consistent with my internal view on the matter. And beyond that, honestly, I don't think you've seen shit from me calling for violence against other people. Unless being very angry and calling people out for what they are constitutes violence. I think you're scrambling around now because you've no argument on this other than "criminals are evil". I've tried to engage you earnestly in this and I regret it, you're not even making arguments.

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

37 minutes ago, Ginolaandtonic said:

 

So is Putin human and worth our understanding? How about Boris Johnson?

 

 

With every single gotcha you post my opinion of your ability to think goes down.

Things are complicated, there are no simple answers

[Alex 35083]

2 hours ago, Ginolaandtonic said:

 

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen posts from you wishing all kinds of harm on various political foes.

 

 

 

 

No, that was me 

[Ginolaandtonic 169]

2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

The only time I would ever advocate for a physically harmful action is if it's the only way to prevent someone hurting others. So for instance, I could get on board with Putin being assassinated since we appear to have no other mechanism to get rid of him, and he's killing thousands. That said though, if he stood down and was tried for war crimes, I wouldn't want him executed.

 

I don't remember posting that, but it's possible because it's consistent with my internal view on the matter. And beyond that, honestly, I don't think you've seen shit from me calling for violence against other people. Unless being very angry and calling people out for what they are constitutes violence. I think you're scrambling around now because you've no argument on this other than "criminals are evil". I've tried to engage you earnestly in this and I regret it, you're not even making arguments.

You take this place far too seriously 👍🏼

[Rayvin 5223]

25 minutes ago, Ginolaandtonic said:

You take this place far too seriously 👍🏼

 

How did I know this response was coming   Seems to be the standard in situations like this. 

 

It's nothing to do with this place mate, I just enjoy a good discussion - you can get plenty of them on here. If you're instead saying that I shouldn't take you seriously, then duly noted.

[Monkeys Fist 42456]

4 hours ago, Ginolaandtonic said:

If you feel that you could forgive somebody (for example) raping or murdering a loved one then that’s your prerogative.

Shall I, chaps? 

[Ginolaandtonic 169]

53 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

How did I know this response was coming   Seems to be the standard in situations like this. 

 

It's nothing to do with this place mate, I just enjoy a good discussion - you can get plenty of them on here. If you're instead saying that I shouldn't take you seriously, then duly noted.

 

 

I’m old enough to realise that people have very different takes on things and the best we can do is muddle along and try to find the common ground rather than endlessly getting into smaller and smaller echo chambers.

 

 

If you think your positions make you smarter or kinder then I don’t have any wish to rain on your parade.

 

 

For every offender that is treated leniently and then reoffends, that pain is for you and your conscience.

[Ginolaandtonic 169]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

No, that was me 

well, yes

[Alex 35083]

 there’s always one on here. It’s a universal law 

[Rayvin 5223]

1 hour ago, Ginolaandtonic said:

 

 

I’m old enough to realise that people have very different takes on things and the best we can do is muddle along and try to find the common ground rather than endlessly getting into smaller and smaller echo chambers.

 

 

If you think your positions make you smarter or kinder then I don’t have any wish to rain on your parade.

 

 

For every offender that is treated leniently and then reoffends, that pain is for you and your conscience.

 

How patronising is this comment, seriously. I have not attempted to position myself as "smarter" or "kinder" than anyone - I was talking to you as an equal. I am who I am, I don't give the slightest fuck whether you think you are smarter or kinder than me - you might well be for all I know - but I don't care. The fact that you mention it suggests that you do care and that might be something you want to reflect on - but for my part, I am not a virtue signalling caricature. What I have told you is literally what I believe. If that shames you somehow, that's not my problem - don't throw that shit at me.

 

Fucking hell.

 

I love the "old enough to realise" bit which is another not so subtle put down. I dunno how old you are mate but I'm 37 and have talked to people the world over - I love talking to people. I wouldn't have gotten far with that if I wasn't aware that people have different views. The issue we have had in this conversation isn't me rejecting your views because you've barely put any forward. I'm left with this vague sense that you must disagree with what I'm saying but you've not committed to anything clearly so I really don't know. I am actually left to assume at this point that you do disagree, but you don't have an argument as to why. More 'gut feel' stuff I guess.

 

To take this to conclusion, I will always consider seriously any well evidenced opinion from any side of the political spectrum. Hell, you could convince me of the benefits of Tory austerity if you could actually make a credible and well reasoned case for it. What I will not consider is speculative emotional rhetoric that brands people as irredeemable animals simply because this is an easier outlook than learning to accept that we all have the capacity for evil in us.

 

The issue isn't that I'm "closed minded", it's that you don't have an argument.

 

 

[Rayvin 5223]

Right I forgot the last bit, pain on my conscience etc - I mean you've just decided there that my view comes down to 'let people out of prison early'. I didn't say anything on that whatsoever. At this point you have no idea what my views on that are, you've just assumed them into the same virtue signalling caricature.

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894]

1 minute ago, Rayvin said:

Right I forgot the last bit, pain on my conscience etc - I mean you've just decided there that my view comes down to 'let people out of prison early'. I didn't say anything on that whatsoever. At this point you have no idea what my views on that are, you've just assumed them into the same virtue signalling caricature.

I’m pretty sure all the people being conscripted are out on probation. You’re the one in the right Rayvin chill dude.

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, Kevin Carr's Gloves said:

I’m pretty sure all the people being conscripted are out on probation. You’re the one in the right Rayvin chill dude.

 

I'm ok really

 

I have covid at the moment and being bed ridden has given me some pent up energy clearly.

[Monkeys Fist 42456]

[ewerk 30616]

2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

How patronising is this comment, seriously. I have not attempted to position myself as "smarter" or "kinder" than anyone - I was talking to you as an equal. I am who I am, I don't give the slightest fuck whether you think you are smarter or kinder than me - you might well be for all I know - but I don't care. The fact that you mention it suggests that you do care and that might be something you want to reflect on - but for my part, I am not a virtue signalling caricature. What I have told you is literally what I believe. If that shames you somehow, that's not my problem - don't throw that shit at me.

 

Fucking hell.

 

I love the "old enough to realise" bit which is another not so subtle put down. I dunno how old you are mate but I'm 37 and have talked to people the world over - I love talking to people. I wouldn't have gotten far with that if I wasn't aware that people have different views. The issue we have had in this conversation isn't me rejecting your views because you've barely put any forward. I'm left with this vague sense that you must disagree with what I'm saying but you've not committed to anything clearly so I really don't know. I am actually left to assume at this point that you do disagree, but you don't have an argument as to why. More 'gut feel' stuff I guess.

 

To take this to conclusion, I will always consider seriously any well evidenced opinion from any side of the political spectrum. Hell, you could convince me of the benefits of Tory austerity if you could actually make a credible and well reasoned case for it. What I will not consider is speculative emotional rhetoric that brands people as irredeemable animals simply because this is an easier outlook than learning to accept that we all have the capacity for evil in us.

 

The issue isn't that I'm "closed minded", it's that you don't have an argument.

 

 

I haven’t followed any of this discussion so I’ve no idea what you’re arguing about but this is the angriest I’ve ever seen you. I like it.

[Ginolaandtonic 169]

17 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

Only the left actually tries to do anything meaningful in tackling crime because only the left tries to understand it. And I say left generously here, what I mean is the centre, the left, and really anyone with any actual common sense. Notably excludes significant swathes of the right who prefer to respond emotionally and assume criminals are "evil" and "animals", words which remove any responsibility from society for doing anything to prevent it.

This was the part where you were being morally superior.

 

You are also making huge assumptions about my positions too.

 

I agree with you that preventing violence is far better than dealing with the aftermath. Anger management should be available for anyone who needs it.

 

But when the crime has already been committed I strongly disagree with your position.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

How patronising is this comment, seriously.

 

12 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

The issue isn't that I'm "closed minded", it's that you don't have an argument.

 

 

🤔 

 

Sounds a bit patronising to me

[Rayvin 5223]

I can't be bothered mate, you win, you can be the smart and kind one.