Vladimir Putin and Russia

[Renton 21627]

16 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

The US in the guise of NATO was a major factor in the invasion of Ukraine. Why did the US & UK take the decision to start training and arming them in the aftermath of the annexation of Crimea in 2014?  It’s not that I have a problem with that, it’s that to me people are failing to recognise what happened and why Ukraine in particular was helped when Putins other incursions were largely ignored by the West… 

 

Why did we start training their soldiers and supplying arms after Russia INVADED and annexed the Crimea, and de facto did this on the Eastern border? I mean, haven't you answered your own question. As for Putin's other incursions, of course the west is going to react differently to a nation being invaded when that nation  borders central Europe, NATO countries, and the EU. What did you want the west to do about Russia's involvement in Syria and Georgia? It was condemned at the time, but I can't see how we could intervene without worsening things. 

 

There is one aggressor here, Putin, simple as that.

 

Again I couldn't recommend that Netflix documentary highly enough. If you watch it, you'll see its an independent assessment of the EUs and Russias roles in the war. Also I'd recommend Arthur Snell's Doomsday podcast where he gets lots of experts on. It's very measured. 

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/doomsday-watch-with-arthur-snell/id1593634121

 

[wykikitoon 20153]

9 minutes ago, Billy Whitehurst said:

‘Prisoners of Geography’ is a good (and fairly accessible) read. It doesn’t just focus on Russia but the chapter on Russia is quite interesting.

 

While NATO’s expansion into Eastern Europe and The Baltic States doesn’t justify Russia’s invasion in to Ukraine, it does explain why Putin feels increasingly threatened. While, Putin is quite clearly in the wrong, it is not as black and white as the Western media makes out.

Good shout that. Great book. 

[Renton 21627]

12 minutes ago, Billy Whitehurst said:

‘Prisoners of Geography’ is a good (and fairly accessible) read. It doesn’t just focus on Russia but the chapter on Russia is quite interesting.

 

While NATO’s expansion into Eastern Europe and The Baltic States doesn’t justify Russia’s invasion in to Ukraine, it does explain why Putin feels increasingly threatened. While, Putin is quite clearly in the wrong, it is not as black and white as the Western media makes out.

 

NATO is a defence mechanism and was no threat to anyone. Putin's shown it was needed. Russia and Putin had a choice. They could  have developed  close ties with the west and become a functioning democracy. In time they would have been exceptionally rich and powerful in that framework with their resources and population. Instead they have become an authoritarian fascist state intent on empire building and allying themselves with China. Fuck them.

 

Having said that, the West should have been much more welcoming when the soviet union fell. Bush repeated the mistakes of WW1 and punished Russia, leaving it to its own devices whilst it transitioned and opening the door to the oligarchs. Things could have been very different early on, but there was always an inevitability once Putin took charge. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Renton

[Alex 35083]

2 hours ago, wykikitoon said:

😂 It's what my mate says. I'm just not read up enough tbh. He was stationed in Germany for 10 years so knows a little more but tbh think the mustard gas has got to him 😂

A couple of ex-forces people I know reasonably well absolutely lap up all the conspiracy shit. One of them still thinks the covid vaccine is some kind control thing. This despite not being vaccinated, having covid last winter and being absolutely wiped out with if for weeks. She’s also thick as mince like. 

[Rayvin 5223]

51 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

NATO is a defence mechanism and was no threat to anyone. Putin's shown it was needed. Russia and Putin had a choice. They could  have developed  close ties with the west and become a functioning democracy. In time they would have been exceptionally rich and powerful in that framework with their resources and population. Instead they have become an authoritarian fascist state intent on empire building and allying themselves with China. Fuck them.

 

Having said that, the West should have been much more welcoming when the soviet union fell. Bush repeated the mistakes of WW1 and punished Russia, leaving it to its own devices whilst it transitioned and opening the door to the oligarchs. Things could have been very different early on, but there was always an inevitability once Putin took charge. 

 

The West said they'd need to submit to an application with the same scrutiny and checks that other countries have to go through, including a functional democratic mechanism. Russia walked away from this because it didn't want to "join the back of the queue like just another small country". The reality I suspect is that they weren't prepared to go through the reform.

 

I am very suspicious of information blaming NATO for all of this given how well Putin has poisoned information within the Western world in general. We know he's hit the right on that front, it is not inconceivable to me whatsoever that he went for the left as well.

 

The Kremlin released a statement literally detailing why they did this - it was to restore the greater Russian empire, a gift that Putin is giving to future generations of Russia. Finally solving the Ukrainian question. When speaking to Western outlets, he talks about the need to push back against NATO - IMO this is because he knows this view will get more sympathy than "I'm empire building". But if that view was accurate, why has Russia not responded to the overtones from Finland and Sweden to join NATO? Why has Russia brought NATO right to its door, justifying every step it has taken, in order to "purge" its presence from Ukraine. If NATO is the reason he's done this, then after years of being a fucking mastermind he's shown himself to be an absolute moron. If it's empire building, then I would suggest that after years of being an egotistical fascist, he has... continued to be an egotistical fascist.

 

The consistency of the latter position is what I think the real justification is.

[Gemmill 44894]

People talk about this being a war of attrition but they haven't seen you cunts get into it about NATO or neoliberalism. 

[Rayvin 5223]

We should be very grateful for each other IMO, that we have this space to robustly challenge our views  

[spongebob toonpants 3997]

33 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

The West said they'd need to submit to an application with the same scrutiny and checks that other countries have to go through, including a functional democratic mechanism. Russia walked away from this because it didn't want to "join the back of the queue like just another small country". The reality I suspect is that they weren't prepared to go through the reform.

 

I am very suspicious of information blaming NATO for all of this given how well Putin has poisoned information within the Western world in general. We know he's hit the right on that front, it is not inconceivable to me whatsoever that he went for the left as well.

 

The Kremlin released a statement literally detailing why they did this - it was to restore the greater Russian empire, a gift that Putin is giving to future generations of Russia. Finally solving the Ukrainian question. When speaking to Western outlets, he talks about the need to push back against NATO - IMO this is because he knows this view will get more sympathy than "I'm empire building". But if that view was accurate, why has Russia not responded to the overtones from Finland and Sweden to join NATO? Why has Russia brought NATO right to its door, justifying every step it has taken, in order to "purge" its presence from Ukraine. If NATO is the reason he's done this, then after years of being a fucking mastermind he's shown himself to be an absolute moron. If it's empire building, then I would suggest that after years of being an egotistical fascist, he has... continued to be an egotistical fascist.

 

The consistency of the latter position is what I think the real justification is.

Your overthinking it. It's about who controls the natural resources. Oil gas rare minerals. It always is

Also when it's finally over just see where the contracts to rebuild go.

 

[Renton 21627]

11 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

Your overthinking it. It's about who controls the natural resources. Oil gas rare minerals. It always is

Also when it's finally over just see where the contracts to rebuild go.

 

 

You're underthinking it imo. Ukraine has none of these resources. It has a lot of agriculture. Do you think that is worth it? He's empire building, trying to bring back the USSR. Trying to deny Ukraine's right to autonomy. Its that simple. 

[Renton 21627]

Might add, Russia has huge resources of fossil fuels, which in 2 years he now can't sell to Europe.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

This is all about Russian imperialism. They are the aggressor this time. Let’s not blame NATO expansion, please. Leave that to the likes of Jeremy Corbyn. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Dr Gloom

[Renton 21627]

Just now, Dr Gloom said:

This is all about Russian imperialism. They are the aggressor this time. Let’s not blame NATO expansion, please. Leave that to the likes of Jeremy Corbyn. 

Aye leave it to the far left, and the far right. Occam's razor, who is invading who? One clear answer to that. 

[PaddockLad 17277]

You’re all taking a massive leap here, no one is suggesting for a minute Putin was justified in the invasion. Suggesting NATO expansion wasn’t a factor isn’t a conspiracy theory either. These two things  can exist together.  Am not the one onjecting to NATO expansion in any way, shape or form. Vladimir Putin is. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by PaddockLad

[Renton 21627]

34 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

You’re all taking a massive leap here, no one is suggesting for a minute Putin was justified in the invasion. Suggesting NATO expansion wasn’t a factor isn’t a conspiracy theory either. These two things  can exist together.  Am not the one onjecting to NATO expansion in any way, shape or form. Vladimir Putin is. 

But read what @Rayvin said. By invading Ukraine, he brings the border closer.  How does that make sense? Plus Ukaraine was never a NATO candidate anyway, the predictable consequence of this is now Finland and Sweden are. NATO was just an excuse. He didn't want the Ukraine to become a democratic part if the EU. Once again, watch that film about the start of these troubles. No leap required, the reason are documented and recorded. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Renton

[PaddockLad 17277]

NATO accepted Ukraine as an official prospective member state in 2008. Ironically I don’t think they ever quite had the balls to go through with it. also some other members nations objected. But to state they were never candidates isn’t accurate. I just can’t foresee a time when any Russian president accepts a situation where NATO navy vessels can tie up at Ukrainian Black Sea ports. It’s as valid a reason as Russian imperialism which I fully accept is a factor. He wants to recreate the USSR before he’s dead. 

[Renton 21627]

4 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

NATO accepted Ukraine as an official prospective member state in 2008. Ironically I don’t think they ever quite had the balls to go through with it. also some other members nations objected. But to state they were never candidates isn’t accurate. I just can’t foresee a time when any Russian president accepts a situation where NATO navy vessels can tie up at Ukrainian Black Sea ports. It’s as valid a reason as Russian imperialism which I fully accept is a factor. He wants to recreate the USSR before he’s dead. 

 

Doesn't Turkey, a NATO member, control the Bosphorus straits? 

[Renton 21627]

It really does look like Putin is fucked. 😁

 

 

 

[wykikitoon 20153]

@Rentonthanks for the heads up on Winter on fire. Just finished it.  I'm pretty speechless tbh. 

[Billy Whitehurst 895]

5 hours ago, PaddockLad said:

You’re all taking a massive leap here, no one is suggesting for a minute Putin was justified in the invasion. Suggesting NATO expansion wasn’t a factor isn’t a conspiracy theory either. These two things  can exist together.  Am not the one onjecting to NATO expansion in any way, shape or form. Vladimir Putin is. 

Yes, I’d agree with all this.

[Alex 35083]

1 hour ago, Renton said:

It really does look like Putin is fucked. 😁

 

 

 

Harold Shipman is looking canny 

[Toonpack 9427]

4 hours ago, PaddockLad said:

NATO accepted Ukraine as an official prospective member state in 2008. Ironically I don’t think they ever quite had the balls to go through with it. also some other members nations objected. But to state they were never candidates isn’t accurate. I just can’t foresee a time when any Russian president accepts a situation where NATO navy vessels can tie up at Ukrainian Black Sea ports. It’s as valid a reason as Russian imperialism which I fully accept is a factor. He wants to recreate the USSR before he’s dead. 

NATO expansion was a pretext, former Soviet states joined which meant his recreating the USSR dream was fucked, it was nothing to do with NATO being a threat to Russia itself, it’s all about him reinventing a Russian ruled superstate.

[Renton 21627]

59 minutes ago, wykikitoon said:

@Rentonthanks for the heads up on Winter on fire. Just finished it.  I'm pretty speechless tbh. 

 

The bravery of the Ukrainian people is truly inspirational. If, when hopefully, they win this war that is a nation that has earned its future. 

[Christmas Tree 4725]

 

[Gemmill 44894]

He stole that off my ex-wife. 

[Monkeys Fist 42458]

Bonio will be issueing a copyright notice on that, licketty split, so he will.