Vladimir Putin and Russia

[Isegrim 9577]

Crimeans voting in favour of joining Russia was obviously in no way a staged referendum. Certainly Putin would never do something like this.

[scoobos 297]

21 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

i stopped reading when you linked to a Seumas Milne oped, sorry. 

Ive no idea who that is, so apologies.

 

But that could be polarisation.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#:~:text=The official result from the,Russian Federation with an 89

 

 

Now , to show im trying to be balanced, the UN pretty much called it invalid BUT they did Isreals occupation too, along with our war in Iraq and syria and yemen. That doesnt make those less valid to the people on the aggressive side though.

 

 

[Rayvin 5127]

13 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

 

They still think Russia = "idealistic socialist utopia" instead of the fascist pariah gangster state its been for 30 years,  the fuckin stupid bastards 

 

I don't know about Milne but I honestly think some people hate the US so much in terms of what it stands for - capitalism rather than freedom - that it blinds them to objective analysis. The fact that Russia has been actively infecting our societies with their bullshit is the thing that really shows this IMO. I mean how do these leftwingers reconcile that, I can't get my head around it. He's literally supporting far right movements in the West that in any other conversation they'd be screaming about.

 

I think the truth actually is that they hate the US more than anything else. They hate white supremacy a bit, but it's mostly a stick to beat the US with. If it was genuine and deep rooted, they'd hate Putin too. But nah, I keep reading about how Putin is just doing to us what we did to him, that the US supports the far right elsewhere etc. And I mean ok, but you condemn the US supporting the far right. You never shut up about it. You condemn the far right in our own countries. Where is your righteous fury for Russia, who are supporting it?

 

The left should despise Putin absolutely. He stands against everything we believe in, if we are true to our principles. They can despise the US too, but consistency of principle demands they must despise Putin. And they don't, and I just don't get it.

[scoobos 297]

14 minutes ago, PaddockLad said:

 

They still think Russia = "idealistic socialist utopia" instead of the fascist pariah gangster state its been for 30 years,  the fuckin stupid bastards 

Now i am being a bit silly BUT 

 

Replace "idealistic democratic utopia"  and perhaps 20 years instead of 30 

 

And couldnt you say the same of the UK / USA idea of democracy and neoliberalism? 

 

We are also corrupt states with the equivalent of oligarchs , just ours are "entrepreneurs" or "wealth creators".

 

Democracy does exist , switzerland manage it , as does New Zealand, but I think its been rigged to fuck in the US and UK .

 

Hopefully the ukranian war will be over quickly and the information war will win. Russia cannot control the internet unless they remove it entirely.

[Renton 20421]

1 hour ago, scoobos said:

Crimeans voted over 97% in favor of being russian. 

 

The exact same percentage that voted for Putin, coincidentally, I'm sure. 

[scoobos 297]

8 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

I don't know about Milne but I honestly think some people hate the US so much in terms of what it stands for - capitalism rather than freedom - that it blinds them to objective analysis. The fact that Russia has been actively infecting our societies with their bullshit is the thing that really shows this IMO. I mean how do these leftwingers reconcile that, I can't get my head around it. He's literally supporting far right movements in the West that in any other conversation they'd be screaming about.

 

I think the truth actually is that they hate the US more than anything else. They hate white supremacy a bit, but it's mostly a stick to beat the US with. If it was genuine and deep rooted, they'd hate Putin too. But nah, I keep reading about how Putin is just doing to us what we did to him, that the US supports the far right elsewhere etc. And I mean ok, but you condemn the US supporting the far right. You never shut up about it. You condemn the far right in our own countries. Where is your righteous fury for Russia, who are supporting it?

 

The left should despise Putin absolutely. He stands against everything we believe in, if we are true to our principles. They can despise the US too, but consistency of principle demands they must despise Putin. And they don't, and I just don't get it.

This whole left and right thing  , to me, shows the problem.

 

Black and white always and its hust not like that. Go and live in central USA for a few years its fucking awful cos of divide and conquer.

 

Im not communist or capatalist , but the culture wars are just as bad on both sides. More people have died to US foreign policy and domestic policy than russians.

 

(China wins on that tho, they had people literally eating those withthe opposing view).

Dark shit, but this good and bad is not helping. Left and right shows indoctrination in my opinion.

Its a term that simply didnt exist before neoliberilsm replaced keynesian / social policies.same and neoliberalism including the word liberal, when theres fuck all liberal about freeing corporations from social and human responsibilities in the name of GDP

 

 

Seriously tho, who is the "lefty" person right now you dont see hating Putin? Ive not seen anything even from the most rabid of the media

Edited March 26, 2022 by scoobos

[Dr Gloom 21302]

21 minutes ago, scoobos said:

Ive no idea who that is, so apologies.

 

But that could be polarisation.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#:~:text=The official result from the,Russian Federation with an 89

 

 

Now , to show im trying to be balanced, the UN pretty much called it invalid BUT they did Isreals occupation too, along with our war in Iraq and syria and yemen. That doesnt make those less valid to the people on the aggressive side though.

 

 

he’s an old trot and the “brains” behind Corbyn’s Labour leadership 

[scoobos 297]

Cheers.

 

I went down the allotment for a bit, did me the world of good.

 

I could have just said " just be careful of propoganda, in war time. Especially with the social engineering and AI shit thats now part of our world."

 

Instead I just sit trance like in bed, writing shit for 2 hours in the day.

 

 

An "interesting time" to be alive, thats for sure.

 

 

At least there's the footie! 

 

 

[ohhh_yeah 2884]

 

 

[ohhh_yeah 2884]

 

 

 

[Rayvin 5127]

“For God's sake, this man cannot remain in power.”

 

Biden, on Putin.

 

That's some fairly unequivocal language. Rare that you see that, politically.

[ohhh_yeah 2884]

 

 

 

[Renton 20421]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

“For God's sake, this man cannot remain in power.”

 

Biden, on Putin.

 

That's some fairly unequivocal language. Rare that you see that, politically.

 

And then went on to calll him a butcher. Putin continues to talk about using nukes. Good chance things will escalate it seems, one way or another. 

[Rayvin 5127]

The White House has walked it back a bit apparently but no chance that was just off the cuff. That was a shot across the bow IMO.

 

The UK has apparently indicated that all sanctions could be dropped if Putin leaves Ukraine. There's the off ramp.

[Dr Gloom 21302]

A “Sleepy Joe” classic 

[Gemmill 42647]

Aye, I don't think that's about to become official policy or anything. Just an old timey dude briefly forgetting that he's the president. 

[Renton 20421]

9 hours ago, Rayvin said:

The White House has walked it back a bit apparently but no chance that was just off the cuff. That was a shot across the bow IMO.

 

The UK has apparently indicated that all sanctions could be dropped if Putin leaves Ukraine. There's the off ramp.

 

Who would pay for reparations? I don't think sanctions should end until Russia is fully democratised and they have paid for wvwry life.they have taken and window they have broken. 

[Rayvin 5127]

Yeah but clearly we're prepared to make sacrifices to end this. Presumably the EU would cover most of the costs as part of an overall move to bring Ukraine into the fold. We'll get fuck all from Russia, there's no way this ends with an admission of fault on their side.

[Renton 20421]

So okay, that would mean entry of the Ukraine to the EU. Which was kind of what the whole war was about. Can't see that happening either. Thing is, Putin is a dictator. When he talks of existential threats to Russia, he really means existential threats to himself. If this is a ploy to instigate an internal coup, fair enough. Otherwise its not happening imo.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Renton

[Rayvin 5127]

A bit confused now, what specifically do you mean is the thing that isn't happening? The EU has already set up the fund. I think Ukraine in the EU is something that Russia could live with tbh, I've not seen anything in their statements about opposition to that eventuality. Maybe I'm reading the wrong statements, idk. NATO was the big manufactured concern.

 

If Putin really is following the philosophies of Dugin the fascist, then he won't be opposed to the EU. He'll just want it to be a fascist police state style setup run by Russia. Could be a work in progress for him.

[Renton 20421]

17 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

A bit confused now, what specifically do you mean is the thing that isn't happening? The EU has already set up the fund. I think Ukraine in the EU is something that Russia could live with tbh, I've not seen anything in their statements about opposition to that eventuality. Maybe I'm reading the wrong statements, idk. NATO was the big manufactured concern.

 

If Putin really is following the philosophies of Dugin the fascist, then he won't be opposed to the EU. He'll just want it to be a fascist police state style setup run by Russia. Could be a work in progress for him.

 

Have you seen Winter on Fire on Netflix? This whole war was caused by Ukraine's potential ascension to the EU in 2014.

[Dr Gloom 21302]

what does everyone think of this? Are the Russians having as much of a mare as it’s being suggested in some quarters? Hard to know what to believe tbh 

[Rayvin 5127]

I mean, I think I can follow along in agreement right up until his refusal to engage the elephant in the room, i.e. nuclear weapons. If this was an entirely conventional war with no prospect of chemical or nuclear weaponry being introduced, then I would more or less agree with him - however, if we don't give Putin an off ramp he may simply conclude that he has no choice but to go down swinging.

 

If he does that, it's just bad. For everyone. Now, I'm still not at all convinced Putin is minded to use any nukes, but if he was faced with total defeat then even for me that assumption changes somewhat. Moreover, what he's calling for is basically regime change. I mean what happens if Putin pulls out of Ukraine? Do we go in after his forces? How do we 'force' the issue? I'm not sure sanctions will be enough to do that - over time all they'll do is encourage Russia to pivot their economy to China.

 

On the other side, we absolutely cannot trust Russia to honour any sort of agreement.  Realistically though, I think our best bet is just to wait for him to die.

[ewerk 29491]

What the author is calling for is the complete humiliation of Putin. He will never agree to that.

 

But why should we offer Putin any concessions? He isn’t in a position of power, he’s losing and will soon be looking for a way out himself.

 

As Rayvin says, nukes are the key here. I’m not sure that Putin can even use them if he wanted to. I don’t think that Russia’s military doctrine would allow them to use nuclear weapons so it depends on whether the military would obey what would be an unlawful order.

 

What I expect is that Russia will begin more widespread use of chemical weapons. The question is how much of this will the West put up with? Quite a lot would be my guess.

 

And if nuclear weapons are used in Ukraine then how do we react?

[Renton 20421]

More widespread use of chemical weapons? Have I missed something here, or are you referring to the Syrian campaign? I've always thought chemical weapons are a bit of a red herring, used for political rather than military reasons. They won't help him win this war. 

 

Tactical nukes I just can't see it. Again, they have little military value. You can get some very low yield weapons of about 0.1 kT but they're too indiscriminate to be tactically useful and release radiation that can kill your own troops.

 

This leaves strategic nuclear missiles to worry about. You just have to hope the Russian safeguards in Russia are sufficient they can't be launched without us directly attacking their country. And Putin, unlike Hitler, has offspring.