Vladimir Putin and Russia

[Rayvin 5217]

Hungary now falling into line on Swift. Looks like we'll get that over the line.

[Dr Gloom 21915]

6 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I think it depends on what happens after he's killed Zelenskiy.

 

Will Ukraine continue to function without a government, will it be able to coordinate an effective response? Also, we don't know that his goal is conquest, if it's just regime change then he will have secured an objective as long as he gets a puppet government in place.

 

regime change is a dangerous game - he just needs to check out the west's failures in Iraq and Afghanistan. you have to wonder how a puppet regime fighting a long-term insurgency would go down with ordinary russians. this invasion could backfire massively for putin. hopefully anyway

[spongebob toonpants 3995]

https://www.newstatesman.com/international-content/2022/02/silence-wont-make-the-ukrainian-far-right-go-away

[Gemmill 44853]

37 minutes ago, Renton said:

I'm now convinced this isn't a winnable war and Putin has made a huge blunder. I was ignorant to the shear size and population of Ukraine.

Ignorant to the correct spelling of sheer as well.

 

[Renton 21609]

[Toonpack 9399]

32 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

I think it depends on what happens after he's killed Zelenskiy.

 

Will Ukraine continue to function without a government, will it be able to coordinate an effective response? Also, we don't know that his goal is conquest, if it's just regime change then he will have secured an objective as long as he gets a puppet government in place.

He kills Zelenskiy he creates a martyr, I strongly suspect if a puppet is installed that people will just go “oh! You’re in charge now, ok anything you say”.

 

If they use those thermobaric weapons, they are mass people killers, not sure what our (the west) response would be if he uses them.

[Toonpack 9399]

26 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

https://www.newstatesman.com/international-content/2022/02/silence-wont-make-the-ukrainian-far-right-go-away

I stopped reading at *in my new book 🙄🙄

 

He’s right about silence though, it won’t make them go away, it’s elections that’ll make them go away - they got 2.1% of the vote. 

 They have zero influence.

[Rayvin 5217]

1 minute ago, Toonpack said:

I stopped reading at *in my new book 🙄🙄

 

He’s right about silence though, it won’t make them go away, it’s elections that’ll make them go away - they got 2.1% of the vote. 

 They have zero influence.

 

The article I think is intended to persuade left wing people who have been dismissive of the war specifically because of the 'far right' components within Ukraine, that they don't justify an invasion by Russia. So he's on our side of this IMO.

 

That said, I find it stunning that anyone on the left thinks this could possibly be deserved. Or necessary. This is why I've always avoided (or tried to avoid) being 'far left' - there is no sympathy or compassion for people in the extremes of politics, they're all as bloody minded as each other. The human cost of the objective is irrelevant as long as the objective is achieved. And for Russia in Ukraine, the objective as far as the far left went was to criticise the US.

 

10,000 Ukrainian nazis. That's it, in a country of 42m. We have people saying that this is justifiable because of 10,000 people. I'd wager we have more nazis in the UK ffs.

[Dr Gloom 21915]

Look at these brave souls. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees? 
 

 

[Rayvin 5217]

Can you imagine if it was here? I'd pick up a rifle too. I guess all of us would.

[Ayatollah Hermione 13863]

I’d want to be a sniper. 

[Christmas Tree 4725]

Just now, Ayatollah Hermione said:

I’d want to be a sniper. 

I was going to say that but then I remembered they always end up getting blown up in a church tower by a tank.  

[Ayatollah Hermione 13863]

I’ve played enough Metal Gear Solid to know that if you take enough diazepam, your aim is steady enough to take the lad on the top out before he has a chance to aim

[Christmas Tree 4725]

58 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Hungary now falling into line on Swift. Looks like we'll get that over the line.

Just the Germans to agree now.

[Gemmill 44853]

I think I'd be like a Vera Lynn type character. An hour of top notch entertainment for the troops, and the rest of the evening spent knobbing all the lass soldiers.

 

Sending them into battle with spirits high and legs trembling. 

[Tom 14011]

12 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Can you imagine if it was here? I'd pick up a rifle too. I guess all of us would.

Tbh im tempted to head over. If I dont get killed at least my bills will be cheaper 

[Gemmill 44853]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

Tbh im tempted to head over. If I dont get killed at least my bills will be cheaper 

 

Les Paul slung over your back. Killing a rusky, swinging your guitar round and blasting Seven Nation Army into his face from a small amp on your belt. 

 

I'm well up for this. 

[Christmas Tree 4725]

Just in case anyone has tickets.

 

 

[scoobos 298]

I'm still very worried, especially so with Boris making Russian language speeches.

If we sanction Russia for "long term" aims - I worry that we are effectively recreating the situation with the Treaty of Versailles and Germany, actually losing support as the population get Angry and want reprisals.

From what I've been reading over the years - Putin is pretty much saying "how can you do X, when we can't" E.g the argument over the research and development of weapons that contravene the build up treaty - because they are "defensive".

My view is he sees the US / UK Invasion of Iraq as being totally and fairly comparable to what he's doing - he's trying to drive tanks at speed into Kyiv and overthrow the leader and replace him . Will he have him hung on video?  The problem he's having with Ukraine is that he's not carpet bombed civilian or governmental targets in the city, as we did during the "Shock and Awe" first phase of our assault. so they are not completely psychologically and physically broken before his arrival. Also, in Iraq the public had no appetite to defend their regime - Ukraine's been very impressive. Time will tell how much of the Civilians taking arms is through a desire to defend and how much is driven by the government blocking escape for men of fighting age. 

Again, maybe biased, but I think its a sad reality that killing Iraqi civilians in their cities is somewhat more palatable to NATO members, than the same in a white European city ; this gives Russia a massive problem.. How can they take this city without looking like absolute monsters , and also they don't want destruction, they want regime change and a quick change of "ownership".

I'm by no means supporting the maniac. 

Numbers and stories on both sides will be propaganda based , as far as numbers - but I've not seen many verified videos of airstrikes, downed planes or destroyed tanks from either side . 

The woman with the Sunflowers will go down in history.

Putin's clearly snapped and that's fuckin terrifying in my book , we need to handle this very carefully indeed and try and encourage his own people to oust him before he feels like a mad caged tiger and starts releasing Electromagnetic Bombs.

Anyhoo, thats my shite for the day...

[Isegrim 9772]

18 minutes ago, Christmas Tree said:

Just the Germans to agree now.

It will take a lot of persuasion for them to change their stance but being the last to oppose it might finally tip them over.

[Howmanheyman 33166]

Help on it's way at last from Wraith. 

 

 

[Rayvin 5217]

Turkey now blocking Russian warships.

 

It is starting to feel as if Putin will have to make Russia total pariahs to get this over the line.

 

As for the notion:

 

15 minutes ago, scoobos said:

Again, maybe biased, but I think its a sad reality that killing Iraqi civilians in their cities is somewhat more palatable to NATO members, than the same in a white European city ; this gives Russia a massive problem.. How can they take this city without looking like absolute monsters , and also they don't want destruction, they want regime change and a quick change of "ownership".

 

The Uk and the US have been criticised endlessly for decades following the Iraq war. Half of the country wants Tony Blair strung up as a war criminal. There is no way we will see another Iraq in our lifetimes because of how strong the criticism has been. The last time we got anywhere remotely close to it was Syria and our government was forced to back down due to public and political pressure - which consequently forced the US to back down too.

 

So given that we have been so fiercely critical of our own war, why are we not in a position to condemn this one? We are in a position to, because we know it's wrong. It's not because they're white that the vast majority will be feeling compassion for them, it's because they're next door neighbours, and because we've seen the atrocities that these stupid imperialistic wars lead to.

 

Russia has looked at Iraq and used it as a justification - we are looking at Iraq and using it reason to oppose this.

[Rayvin 5217]

Granted, by "us" and "we" I mean the majority of normal people who are watching on with horror. The same sorts of people who joined a million strong march through London to protest the Iraq war, I might add.

[Dr Gloom 21915]

you're spot on rayvin. i'm so sick of the drivel i'm reading from the left. several good friends of mine are guilty of it. whataboutery instead of condemnation or worse, blaming the west for what putin has done. 

[Tom 14011]

15 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

 

Les Paul slung over your back. Killing a rusky, swinging your guitar round and blasting Seven Nation Army into his face from a small amp on your belt. 

 

I'm well up for this. 

    We’d probably just end up talking about fretboard woods or something. 
 

“do ye get much rosewood in Russia, Vlad?”