Vladimir Putin and Russia

[Rayvin 5223]

Aside from anything else, he shouldn't 'get away with this' at all. It's a sovereign nation ffs. A country which had genocide carried out against it by the very nation that is trying to conquer it.

 

He should not get away with this.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Yeah, but I'm really not sure the number of troops is relevant. Air and done power will be. You need troops on the ground for occupation, which we don't need.

 

I realise we're all sounding like armchair generals here btw, I'm not even on the Dunning Kruger curve here, I'm just thinking out loud. 

 

all that cramming for my armchair epidemiology exam seems like such a waste now 

[Renton 21627]

1 minute ago, Toonpack said:

 

It won't, Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea now Ukraine, he's already said he sees the Russian "empire" as the old USSR countries, if he get's away with this, there'll be another.

 

So that's the Baltic nations and the "stans" left to go? Very much doubt he has the capability to do any of that. 

[Toonpack 9422]

3 minutes ago, scoobos said:

I think your average Russian does want Ukraine though, I remember there been reports of unrest when they "only" annexed Crimea . I think they will believe that once its took, the majority will become "russian". If they've deleted all citizenship records etc, that becomes even more attractive. It's hard to cross borders without papers, most UK people don't understand that - but if you are born without papers, it's difficult to even be a refugee!

 

Your average Russian can want what they want - but it's arguable what they even know, Ukraine is not Russia, they don't even speak the same language and even the alphabet is different. It's related but distinct. It's what the Ukrainian folks want that is important IMO.

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, scoobos said:

This is the "not black and white" that I get emotive about. 

How can we say this , after Iraq, Afghanistan etc? we said they were defensive and the Eastern world KNEW it was bollox. 

War is fucking horrible and greed and nationalism generally drive it - greed for us and Nationalism for them - the cause doesnt matter, its the actions that count. 

We do FUCK all when its not of economic importance. Russia does nothing when its not of nationalistic importance. 

I honestly dont think even Sanctions will work, Russia's pretty self sufficient isnt it?

 

People on the left have told me Russia is self sufficient, the centre say this is ruining them. I don't know who to believe on that front but it seems clear to me that Putin will have expected the sanctions and isn't troubled by them.

 

I don't know why you're bringing in Iraq and Afghanistan unless you think two wrongs make a right and are condoning a race to the bottom on the grounds that the US started it. I've had this conversation all over the place in recent days and it always comes down to the reality that some people think bloodying the nose of the US is more important that the lives of the people on BOTH sides who are dying for this fucking madness.

[Toonpack 9422]

2 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

So that's the Baltic nations and the "stans" left to go? Very much doubt he has the capability to do any of that. 

 

He doesn't have to do it tomorrow.

[ewerk 30616]

18 minutes ago, scoobos said:

Wow these are strange times, I'm conversing with ewark

How on earth do you think NATO gets the number of troops to the area? We needed to build up much earlier if they were going to do that. 

I dont think we can compete with a fully mobilised, planned Russian attack force of these numbers. What we could do is attack Russia on its weakened fronts , if it does, as alleged, have 70% of its forces in combat right now.

Right now alaska is open, there's absolutely zero build up there - that's on US Soil - which shows exactly what the US intent is - and like it or not , NATO is , to some extent, in the pocket of the US.

Worst leaders at the worst time.

Personally, and this is fookin horrible - I'm hoping they roll over Ukraine like we did Iraq and this be over in a matter of days. but from the videos coming out, it's not like that - and the Ukrainians are more ready than we thought. Lots of exploding tank footage out there .

 

You've been gone long enough that I've wiped your slate clean.

 

No one is talking about attacking Russia. There's zero appetite for that. Plus it's a bit chilly in Siberia at this time of year.

 

If the west decided to begin mobilising troops then they are capable of driving Russia out of Ukraine. Even at this point. But again I don't think there's much desire for that either.

 

What I think we'll see is a number of economic, financial and diplomatic sanctions designed to really hurt Russia. Combined with that will be the hope that Ukranian forces are strong enough and well equipped enough to stop the Russians taking the entire country.

 

If they're wrong in these hopes then fuck know where we go from there.

[scoobos 298]

2 minutes ago, Toonpack said:

 

Your average Russian can want what they want - but it's arguable what they even know, Ukraine is not Russia, they don't even speak the same language and even the alphabet is different. It's related but distinct. It's what the Ukrainian folks want that is important IMO.

Im talking in terms of Putin's motivation. He's trying to retain power.

[Rayvin 5223]

1 minute ago, ewerk said:

 

You've been gone long enough that I've wiped your slate clean.

 

No one is talking about attacking Russia. There's zero appetite for that. Plus it's a bit chilly in Siberia at this time of year.

 

If the west decided to begin mobilising troops then they are capable of driving Russia out of Ukraine. Even at this point. But again I don't think there's much desire for that either.

 

What I think we'll see is a number of economic, financial and diplomatic sanctions designed to really hurt Russia. Combined with that will be the hope that Ukranian forces are strong enough and well equipped enough to stop the Russians taking the entire country.

 

If they're wrong in these hopes then fuck know where we go from there.

 

The EU, if you combined forces and threw the UK in, has a standing army of about 1 million troops. 

 

No fucking way is Russia repelling that if they went into Ukraine.

[Toonpack 9422]

4 minutes ago, scoobos said:

Im talking in terms of Putin's motivation. He's trying to retain power.

 

Oh aye, it's a play for internal reasons but:

 

https://twitter.com/ABarbashin/status/1496828064407429122?s=20&t=4y-JvcEcj0ySBImzr82-uQ

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Toonpack

[Dr Gloom 21924]

it'd be nice to just have a few boring years

[scoobos 298]

 

8 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

People on the left have told me Russia is self sufficient, the centre say this is ruining them. I don't know who to believe on that front but it seems clear to me that Putin will have expected the sanctions and isn't troubled by them.

 

I don't know why you're bringing in Iraq and Afghanistan unless you think two wrongs make a right and are condoning a race to the bottom on the grounds that the US started it. I've had this conversation all over the place in recent days and it always comes down to the reality that some people think bloodying the nose of the US is more important that the lives of the people on BOTH sides who are dying for this fucking madness.

The "left and right and centre" thing is modern BS politics, I'm being a bit preachy, but labelling is a weapon and not a good thing.

Also, people are dying every single day due to USA's actions and culture, and Chinas and the rest of the major powers - its a reality of the modern world. It's dog eat dog out there, over resources, not democracy and all the other shit we give it.

[Renton 21627]

8 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

You've been gone long enough that I've wiped your slate clean.

 

No one is talking about attacking Russia. There's zero appetite for that. Plus it's a bit chilly in Siberia at this time of year.

 

If the west decided to begin mobilising troops then they are capable of driving Russia out of Ukraine. Even at this point. But again I don't think there's much desire for that either.

 

What I think we'll see is a number of economic, financial and diplomatic sanctions designed to really hurt Russia. Combined with that will be the hope that Ukranian forces are strong enough and well equipped enough to stop the Russians taking the entire country.

 

If they're wrong in these hopes then fuck know where we go from there.

 

This is my take too. 

[scoobos 298]

8 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

The EU, if you combined forces and threw the UK in, has a standing army of about 1 million troops. 

 

No fucking way is Russia repelling that if they went into Ukraine.

But they aren't mobilised, that's the point (that I think) you are missing. We didnt mobilise , we didnt really try and find a diplomatic resolution either - other than France and Germany.

Edited February 24, 2022 by scoobos
(that I think) - bit preachy otherwise, no one, me included, has a fookin clue whats going on ere really :(

[ewerk 30616]

21 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

Fewer lives are lost if it's over fast.

 

Funny that's Gemmill's catchphrase on a Saturday night down the taxi rank.

[scoobos 298]

10 minutes ago, ewerk said:

 

You've been gone long enough that I've wiped your slate clean.

 

 

Yours is still covered in shite , spunk, puss and something a kind of deep mauve colour I've no idea what it is.

[Rayvin 5223]

Just now, scoobos said:

But they aren't mobilised, that's the point you are missing. We didnt mobilise , we didnt really try and find a diplomatic resolution either - other than France and Germany.

 

So we start mobilising and tell Putin that either he leaves or we remove him once mobilised.

[Rayvin 5223]

4 minutes ago, scoobos said:

 

The "left and right and centre" thing is modern BS politics, I'm being a bit preachy, but labelling is a weapon and not a good thing.

Also, people are dying every single day due to USA's actions and culture, and Chinas and the rest of the major powers - its a reality of the modern world. It's dog eat dog out there, over resources, not democracy and all the other shit we give it.

 

If it is a reality, and I do accept that not that it justifies anything, then we have to be the bigger dog. This is a western styled democracy that is about to be toppled by a totalitarian dictatorship.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

the champions league final will no longer be played in moscow and it also looks like abramovich is on his way home to moscow 

[scoobos 298]

I think thats highly optimistic. For all this BS Western media talk of " a build up we warned you about" - he started his mobilisation in August last year. we did nothing after he annexed the Crimea, because its just nigh on imposible to move NATO troops to nato borders and then feasibly think we can move across the "no mans land" to the Ukraine without massive losses on both sides and a definate escalation to global warfare.

Putin has said "Stop expanding, you promised you wouldnt expand this far" "Stop putting defensive weapons on my border" . that's his view and rhetoric .
We've said "fuck off, they are a soveriegn nation they can choose who they join".
So he's said, I have no choice, if you're going to expand your way, I'll do it mine.

 

It will get very nasty very quickly if you think we can take 6 months of building up, with international co-operation needed, against that mad bastard heading a totalitarian regime thats probably planned for this for over a decade.

I hate that I'm writing this, and I don't blame the USA - but trying to make out they are in some way a good force for prodding the bear for the last 15 years doesn't wash here. They were planning on intimidation working, so Putin is showing us he isnt scared. 

I am. Of both sides, they are both absolute extreme maniacs. 

[Rayvin 5223]

Calls in Europe for this to be the 'whatever it takes' moment as far as sanctions go. Not sure what that means tbh but I guess we may as well go as far as possible.

[Dr Gloom 21924]

3 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

 

If it is a reality, and I do accept that not that it justifies anything, then we have to be the bigger dog. This is a western styled democracy that is about to be toppled by a totalitarian dictatorship.

 

yup, i said it a few pages ago but standing aside and letting ukraine fall exposes the west's posturing about promoting and protecting democracy for what it is.

 

does it really matter that they're not in the nato club? and what's the difference between ukraine and other non-nato democracies such as finland or sweden? 

[Dr Gloom 21924]

4 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Calls in Europe for this to be the 'whatever it takes' moment as far as sanctions go. Not sure what that means tbh but I guess we may as well go as far as possible.

 

Johnson is pushing to cut them off from Swift. Germany reluctant 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Dr Gloom

[Isegrim 9777]

Ah, the good old ‚blame the EU‘ narrative. Banks, the other charlatan, is joining him of course.

[Renton 21627]

7 minutes ago, Dr Gloom said:

the champions league final will no longer be played in moscow and it also looks like abramovich is on his way home to moscow 

 

Wasn't going to be played there anyway. [pedant\]