Junior doctors' strike

[ewerk 30569]

And part of my reason for being confused is that I don't believe that either side has clearly and honestly set out their positions and motivations behind this. As I said above, both sides are spinning this.

[PaddockLad 17244]

I think that's an incredible over-simplification of matters. The idea that this is being done in order to set the NHS up to fail is fanciful. Not impossible but incredibly unlikely IMO. Like CT supports Tory actions no matter how idiotic or cruel they are, there are many on the other side who will automatically call the government cunts for any and all actions they take. The truth is somewhere in between.

 

I think this summary below shows that the whole thing is actually confusing (and yes it's from the Torygraph):

 

 

• There is an enormous strength of feeling among junior doctors. People feel used, burned out, ill-treated. They are showing it.
• But some patients, and even some senior doctors, are even angrier. Although polls show most of the general public back the strike, I'd say my inbox has been pretty evenly split between those in favour and those who think it is dangerous, arrogant, and wrong.
• Jeremy Hunt frames this strike as the unions attempting to obstruct his democratically-mandated seven-day NHS. But it's not clear how this contract will actually help the seven-day NHS come into being. Certainly it isn't enough on its own. Instead, it may merely be a way of cutting costs.
• It is also not at all clear how the new contract will endanger patient safety, or lead to doctors being more tired than they are now, even though many doctors say this.
• The key sticking point for the BMA is Saturday pay. But doctors themselves feel that this strike is about far more than that. Like a rolling stone, it has gathered with it all manner of other considerations – about the pressure on A&E, the hospital funding crisis, the hours doctors work, and the way they feel they're being treated.

A lot of that sounds fair to a layman such as myself. But this is from 2009, a year before the coalition came to power and with the Lib Dems putting the anchors on for 5 years there wasn't much room for manoeuvre. It's as plain as day that the first priority after last years election was the final nail in the NHS coffin:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/aug/16/tory-mps-back-nhs-dismantling?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[The Fish 10855]

The idea that this is being done in order to set the NHS up to fail is fanciful. Not impossible but incredibly unlikely IMO.

 

 

Why is it unlikely? Privatisation is the Thatcherite mandate. Killing off the NHS is a Thatcherite's white whale.

[ewerk 30569]

A lot of that sounds fair to a layman such as myself. But this is from 2009, a year before the coalition came to power and with the Lib Dems putting the anchors on for 5 years there wasn't much room for manoeuvre. It's as plain as day that the first priority after last years election was the final nail in the NHS coffin:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/aug/16/tory-mps-back-nhs-dismantling?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

It's impossible to know from that book who wrote what and Hunt has previously said that it doesn't reflect his beliefs but the fact that one of the co-authors was appointed Health Secretary was staggering and the fact that his relationship with NHS workers has long since crumbled yet he is still in the position shows that he is simply doing the government's bidding in that department.

 

I don't think that the government is brave enough to completely destroy the NHS, as I said above, it's such an emotive issue for people across the political spectrum that I can't see it happening. Creeping privitisation though is another matter.

[ewerk 30569]

 

Why is it unlikely? Privatisation is the Thatcherite mandate. Killing off the NHS is a Thatcherite's white whale.

 

As I said above, public opinion is very much against it and I don't believe that there would be enough support among the Conservative ranks for a complete dismantlement.

[Gemmill 44817]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/27/jeremy-hunt-doesnt-understand-junior-doctors-book-dismantle-nhs

[NJS 4378]

 

As I said above, public opinion is very much against it and I don't believe that there would be enough support among the Conservative ranks for a complete dismantlement.

The process has already started and was continued under Blair - all they have to do now is make the NHS unattractive and allow the ads which already exist which say "be seen straight away" etc free reign to go further.

 

I don't think they'll go as far as having an Irish style GP consultation fee as that would be too obvious even for the stupidest but allowing companies to "rescue" failing hospitals the way they applied the same process to schools will be massively extended as the next step.

[The Fish 10855]

 

It's impossible to know from that book who wrote what and Hunt has previously said that it doesn't reflect his beliefs but the fact that one of the co-authors was appointed Health Secretary was staggering and the fact that his relationship with NHS workers has long since crumbled yet he is still in the position shows that he is simply doing the government's bidding in that department.

 

I don't think that the government is brave enough to completely destroy the NHS, as I said above, it's such an emotive issue for people across the political spectrum that I can't see it happening. Creeping privitisation though is another matter.

But surely that is the complete destruction of the NHS? It'll be death by a thousand cuts.

 

The people will be distracted by X-Factor, or immigration, or benefit cheats, or Jamie Vardy having a Party.

[Dr Gloom 21912]

passionate and informed posts in here by catmag and strawb. The less said about the metal detector's contributions, the better.

 

@@ewerk - Jeremy Cunt's views on the future of the NHS are well documented, he's just laying the foundations with this, with the support from the party leadership, I'm sure. It's fucking obvious the long game is privatisation of some form. They've sold every other state asset off, why not our universal healthcare provision as well?

[ewerk 30569]

But surely that is the complete destruction of the NHS? It'll be death by a thousand cuts.

 

The people will be distracted by X-Factor, or immigration, or benefit cheats, or Jamie Vardy having a Party.

 

We could see privatisation of certain services, how far that will go I don't know but services will continue to be free at the point of delivery for the forseeable future imo. That's what I mean when I say that the entire service will not be dismantled.

Edited April 27, 2016 by ewerk

[ewerk 30569]

And FTR I'm generally against the privatisation of NHS services.

Edited April 27, 2016 by ewerk

[The Fish 10855]

 

We could see privatisation of certain services, how far that will go I don't know but services will continue to be free at the point of delivery for the forseeable future imo. That's what I mean when I say that the entire service will not be dismantled.

 

It will become Medicaid/Medicare. The services provided free at the point of delivery will be of such a standard (thanks to underfunding, understaffing etc.) that expensive private healthcare with be the attractive option. The NHS may limp on, but it will do so in name only. It won't be amongst the best in the world any more.

 

Thanks Thatcher

[Renton 21592]

 

It will become Medicaid/Medicare. The services provided free at the point of delivery will be of such a standard (thanks to underfunding, understaffing etc.) that expensive private healthcare with be the attractive option. The NHS may limp on, but it will do so in name only. It won't be amongst the best in the world any more.

 

Thanks Thatcher

That's my take on it also, starve the nhs of funds, underpay staff so they leave, and let the system fail so that, for those who can afford it, private healthcare is the best option. Of course, private care is massively subsidised by the state indirectly anyway, meanwhile there will be huge profits to be had .

[Christmas Tree 4725]

The hard left on here never cease to amaze me. A fairly straight forward pay dispute about how much extra junior doctors should be paid for turning up on a Saturday is suddenly the end of the NHS.

 

Fucking hell

[The Fish 10855]

The hard left on here never cease to amaze me. A fairly straight forward pay dispute about how much extra junior doctors should be paid for turning up on a Saturday is suddenly the end of the NHS.

 

Fucking hell

 

If it's so straight forward, why won't Hunt sort it out? I mean if it's so straight forward why has he imposed the contract instead of hashing it out?

 

Maybe you, with all your insight and wisdom, should mediate the discussion? You seem to have a pretty good grasp of the complex and nuanced conflict. Either that or you're a smug tory who toes the party line and googles arguments to pass off as your own? Not sure which it can be, I' mean you're so learned on so many subjects, politics will surely be just another string to your bow...

 

Hows the metal detecting going? Found a clue yet?

[Christmas Tree 4725]

 

If it's so straight forward, why won't Hunt sort it out? I mean if it's so straight forward why has he imposed the contract instead of hashing it out?

 

Maybe you, with all your insight and wisdom, should mediate the discussion? You seem to have a pretty good grasp of the complex and nuanced conflict. Either that or you're a smug tory who toes the party line and googles arguments to pass off as your own? Not sure which it can be, I' mean you're so learned on so many subjects, politics will surely be just another string to your bow...

 

Hows the metal detecting going? Found a clue yet?

Oh dear

[The Fish 10855]

Oh dear

What an excellent comeback.

 

I hope you never need the NHS, because it will be gone in my lifetime unless something drastic is done to protect it.

 

I know I shouldn't let his smug arseholery get to me, but it gets under my skin.

Edited April 27, 2016 by The Fish

[Dr Gloom 21912]

 

 

Naturally, things won’t actually be improved; they’ll be sold to something like Virgin Health. Virgin can’t get the toilets to work on a train from Glasgow to London, so it’s time we encouraged it to branch out into something less challenging like transplant surgery. With the rate the NHS is being privatised, it won’t be long before consultations will be done via Skype with a doctor in Bangalore. Thank God we’re raising a generation who are so comfortable getting naked online. “I’m afraid it looks like you’ve had a stroke. No, my mistake – you’re just buffering.”

 

Frankie Boyle's musings in the Grauniad

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/27/jeremy-hunt-doesnt-understand-junior-doctors-book-dismantle-nhs

[Meenzer 15518]

I know I shouldn't let his smug arseholery get to me, but it gets under my skin.

 

I'd get on the waiting list for a graft if I were you. He tends to be septic.

[The Fish 10855]

 

I'd get on the waiting list for a graft if I were you. He tends to be septic.

Fuck that, I'm going BUPA.

[catmag 337]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/27/jeremy-hunt-doesnt-understand-junior-doctors-book-dismantle-nhs

 

So much truth in that piece.

[Gemmill 44817]

Absolutely bizarre that a fat cunt who smokes and is raising a family that will also certainly need the NHS in the future is taking so much pleasure from seeing it dismantled.

 

I could almost understand it if he was living in Darras on a giant nest egg with private health cover secured into retirement.

[Renton 21592]

The hard left on here never cease to amaze me. A fairly straight forward pay dispute about how much extra junior doctors should be paid for turning up on a Saturday is suddenly the end of the NHS.

 

Fucking hell

Yeah, the first ever all out doctors strike is merely a straight forward pay dispute. Despite what the politicians say. Despite what the media says. Despite what those of us on here who work for the nhs are telling you.

 

You are either one monumentally thick cunt or just a cunt full stop. I'll be charitable and go with the former on past evidence.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Renton

[Christmas Tree 4725]

Absolutely bizarre that a fat cunt who smokes and is raising a family that will also certainly need the NHS in the future is taking so much pleasure from seeing it dismantled.

 

I could almost understand it if he was living in Darras on a giant nest egg with private health cover secured into retirement.

Dear me

 

 

Where have I said I take any pleasure in the NHS been dismantled or even agree that it is been dismantled?

 

I'll wait while you find a quote.........

 

Guess not eh

 

All I've pointed out in this thread is that the strike is only happening because of the disagreement of Saturday pay. Nothing else.

 

But yet again the righteous leftys are trying to turn it into something else.

 

Comical

[Gemmill 44817]

You're enjoying this. That much is clear. We'll see how funny it is when you need medical care in 10 years time.