Junior doctors' strike

[Christmas Tree 4725]

Yeah the acceptance of people getting fucked as just how it should be is what's horribly wrong here. You get a bunch of workers trying to stand up for themselves and instead of agreeing with them, you get people shrugging their shoulders and going "well it happened to me/him/them, so why not you too".

 

And that's setting aside the wild hours that these junior doctors are already working.

Remind me of the moral outrage when you were frothing about how much cheaper Uber were?

[Gemmill 44894]

Remind me of the moral outrage when you were frothing about how much cheaper Uber were?

I'm not in the least bit surprised that you're thick enough to think that they are comparable scenarios.

[NJS 4386]

The classic is the moaning that greets tube drivers strikes - "50k for that!" - well maybe if you stood together like they do instead of stabbing your colleague in the back for an extra 1% you could have that as well.

 

"What have unions ever done? " - every single employee right you now have is down to unions, you fucking imbecile - and when you have none left it will serve you right.

[ewerk 30616]

The classic is the moaning that greets tube drivers strikes - "50k for that!" - well maybe if you stood together like they do instead of stabbing your colleague in the back for an extra 1% you could have that as well.

 

And by standing together of course you mean bringing London to a virtual standstill via strike action.

[PaddockLad 17274]

Where the fuck did I say that?

 

Who says I was talking about you?

 

You did, ironically enough, say something about "9-5 being eradicated from most businesses"or some other such apologetic Tory lite bullshit blandism for people in the workplace being shat upon.

 

The tories are running the NHS into the ground so they have an excuse to privitse it. I know what you said about Hunt being a twat but you then basically excused him by saying it sounds like a good cost cutting measure. Your kids will have to pay for what we get for nothing. The NHS is the only thing that distinguishes the UK from any other westernised country. Of course we can afford it and it's rising costs by taxing the right people and corporations correctly. But there is abosoutley no will in government for this to happen, the tories sitting on the boards of private health companies tells its own story (not to mention their Labour counterparts in the last government) so it will probably happen, because the propaganda which you appear to have fallen for but "hilariously" claim not to have seems to have an appreciative, if easily lead, audience.

[The Fish 10857]

1. I'd get help if you spend your spare time hanging around supermarkets looking out for old ladies.

 

2. Junior Doctors are not been asked to work longers hours.

 

The whole reason the BMA walked away was purely down to not getting premium overtime for working a Saturday. It's all about money.

 

 

1. That's exactly what I do, bravo, what hilarious wit.

2. No, it isn't. But you keep believing the people who're systematically destroying the thing that Obama risked his presidency on trying to emulate.

 

Even if it is about money (which it isn't), isn't that what your much loved Private Sector is all about? Getting the most for what you do? I'd have thought that kind of greed would be right up your street?

 

Fuck me, Tories are all self-serving arseholes, aren't they?

[ewerk 30616]

Who says I was talking about you?

 

You did, ironically enough, say something about "9-5 being eradicated from most businesses"or some other such apologetic Tory lite bullshit blandism for people in the workplace being shat upon.

 

The tories are running the NHS into the ground so they have an excuse to privitse it. I know what you said about Hunt being a twat but you then basically excused him by saying it sounds like a good cost cutting measure. Your kids will have to pay for what we get for nothing. The NHS is the only thing that distinguishes the UK from any other westernised country. Of course we can afford it and it's rising costs by taxing the right people and corporations correctly. But there is abosoutley no will in government for this to happen, the tories sitting on the boards of private health companies tells its own story (not to mention their Labour counterparts in the last government) so it will probably happen, because the propaganda which you appear to have fallen for but "hilariously" claim not to have seems to have an appreciative, if easily lead, audience.

 

I was commenting on the changing working patterns in modern society. Things do change and that's how it is. I did not excuse Hunt at all, I made a very basic economic argument that assets are underused due to current working hours.

 

I've started this thread because I didn't have a position on the issue and have stated several times since that I still don't. Many posters in this thread have come in with preconceived ideas and all I've done is try to put a counter-argument on the table. Of course I momentarily forgot that this is the internet and changing opinions is nigh on impossible. I still don't have a clue about who is right and who is wrong but the feeling seems to be that any sort of change is automatically for the worse.

[ewerk 30616]

 

2. No, it isn't.

 

 

According the the BMA's announcement it pretty much sounds like it is.

 

 

Why are we going back to industrial action?

In December 2015, the BMA suspended the industrial action and the government suspended their plans to impose a new contract, so that we could negotiate. Unfortunately we have been unable to reach agreement on some major points in sufficient time. Therefore despite our best efforts we cannot agree to a new contract and must lift the suspension of the industrial action.

What was the outcome of the negotiations?

We could not reach agreement on some key points. These centre on the boundaries for plain and premium time, and punitive rates for exceeding working time regulations.

[PaddockLad 17274]

I was commenting on the changing working patterns in modern society. Things do change and that's how it is. I did not excuse Hunt at all, I made a very basic economic argument that assets are underused due to current working hours.

 

I've started this thread because I didn't have a position on the issue and have stated several times since that I still don't. Many posters in this thread have come in with preconceived ideas and all I've done is try to put a counter-argument on the table. Of course I momentarily forgot that this is the internet and changing opinions is nigh on impossible. I still don't have a clue about who is right and who is wrong but the feeling seems to be that any sort of change is automatically for the worse.

Changing corporation tax rates for major PLC's would be a good change. And, being "middle income" myself, I've no objection to a penny in the pound increase on my income tax for the NHS. Pissing doctors off is the only change being offered at the moment though.

[The Fish 10857]

 

 

According the the BMA's announcement it pretty much sounds like it is.

 

It's not "all about money".

[NJS 4386]

 

And by standing together of course you mean bringing London to a virtual standstill via strike action.

Use the power you have while you have it - nothing wrong with that.

 

I realise they probably won't have jobs in ten years time but that's acceptable progress in my view.

[ewerk 30616]

It's not "all about money".

 

So what is it about? It seems like the other issues have been settled. The doctors are prepared to work the unsocial hours, the only question is how much of a premium they should be paid for doing so. Please feel free to correct me if I've missed anything.

[Renton 21627]

 

I was commenting on the changing working patterns in modern society. Things do change and that's how it is. I did not excuse Hunt at all, I made a very basic economic argument that assets are underused due to current working hours.

 

I've started this thread because I didn't have a position on the issue and have stated several times since that I still don't. Many posters in this thread have come in with preconceived ideas and all I've done is try to put a counter-argument on the table. Of course I momentarily forgot that this is the internet and changing opinions is nigh on impossible. I still don't have a clue about who is right and who is wrong but the feeling seems to be that any sort of change is automatically for the worse.

You compared healthcare with retail work. I don't think you have bothered to answer what the advantages of a "7 day" NHS would be, how it can be afforded at a time when expenditure on the nhs is falling in real terms, or what the consequences of the nhs failing to achieve this target might be.

 

You've basically started this thread looking for a bite. We'll done, you've got it, but don't complain if people think you're a CT because of it.

[ewerk 30616]

Use the power you have while you have it - nothing wrong with that.

 

I realise they probably won't have jobs in ten years time but that's acceptable progress in my view.

 

You could argue that they have an obligation to use that power more responsibly. Progress appears to be something the RMT doesn't embrace.

[ewerk 30616]

You compared healthcare with retail work. I don't think you have bothered to answer what the advantages of a "7 day" NHS would be, how it can be afforded at a time when expenditure on the nhs is falling in real terms, or what the consequences of the nhs failing to achieve this target might be.

 

You've basically started this thread looking for a bite. We'll done, you've got it, but don't complain if people think you're a CT because of it.

 

Pretty much everything you've said there I've already addressed (see below). And it's not entirely surprising that you assume that anyone presenting an argument contrary to your narrow view is looking for a bite.

 

 

 

I was commenting on the changing working patterns in modern society. Things do change and that's how it is. I did not excuse Hunt at all, I made a very basic economic argument that assets are underused due to current working hours.

I've started this thread because I didn't have a position on the issue and have stated several times since that I still don't. Many posters in this thread have come in with preconceived ideas and all I've done is try to put a counter-argument on the table. Of course I momentarily forgot that this is the internet and changing opinions is nigh on impossible. I still don't have a clue about who is right and who is wrong but the feeling seems to be that any sort of change is automatically for the worse.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

You compared healthcare with retail work. I don't think you have bothered to answer what the advantages of a "7 day" NHS would be, how it can be afforded at a time when expenditure on the nhs is falling in real terms, or what the consequences of the nhs failing to achieve this target might be.

 

You've basically started this thread looking for a bite. We'll done, you've got it, but don't complain if people think you're a CT because of it.

This is what "the NHS thinks about a 7 day week.

 

 

It declared in 2013 that it intended to transform itself into that. The view of its seven-day services working group is that: “The demand for urgent and emergency care does not follow a pattern that is consistent with the traditional working week of Monday to Friday, nine to five. If a profession, service or facility is important to the care of patients, the NHS cannot justify a delay in its availability based solely on the fact it is the weekend.

 

“Accepting the limitations of NHS resources, and the inter-dependencies of care which make providing an equitable service a challenge of viability as well as one of principle, every effort should be made to ensure that the standard of care a patient receives, their experience of it and the outcome as a result, are not impacted by the day of the week.”

[PaddockLad 17274]

Ewerk, You say you didn't have a position, you've (and this is being very fuckin charitable) played devils advocate, you've been told that it's fuckin ridiculous for several different reasons. And you still claim not to have a position on it.

 

For a manager you seem a bit indecisive tbh. If I was your old man I'd fuckin sack you.

[Renton 21627]

 

So what is it about? It seems like the other issues have been settled. The doctors are prepared to work the unsocial hours, the only question is how much of a premium they should be paid for doing so. Please feel free to correct me if I've missed anything.

Worsening t&c's, normalisation of weekend working (which I know you agree with), and imposed contracts for starters. I'm not a clinical doctor but do work in a hospital, also unfortunately had to use some hospital services myself. Morale is really low after progressively worsening conditions and a near decade long pay freeze.

 

It costs the state about £600k to train a medical student, only a tiny fraction of which is retrieved through loans etc. Currently, only about 50% of graduates stay in the nhs, largely because it's become a pretty rubbish place to work. The government really is killing the nhs.

[Renton 21627]

 

Pretty much everything you've said there I've already addressed (see below). And it's not entirely surprising that you assume that anyone presenting an argument contrary to your narrow view is looking for a bite.

 

Sorry, that really doesn't address my questions at all.

[ewerk 30616]

Ewerk, You say you didn't have a position, you've (and this is being very fuckin charitable) played devils advocate, you've been told that it's fuckin ridiculous for several different reasons. And you still claim not to have a position on it.

 

For a manager you seem a bit indecisive tbh. If I was your old man I'd fuckin sack you.

 

I honest to god don't think I will ever have a position on this. The simple fact is that this strike is about money. By the BMA's own admission that is the central problem that remains with this contract yet there are several on here who are still maintaining that it is about much more.

[ewerk 30616]

Worsening t&c's, normalisation of weekend working (which I know you agree with), and imposed contracts for starters. I'm not a clinical doctor but do work in a hospital, also unfortunately had to use some hospital services myself. Morale is really low after progressively worsening conditions and a near decade long pay freeze.

 

I don't actually agree with weekend working in the NHS where it isn't necessary. I've stated the economic argument for it and that it is becoming more common in the workplace but I don't think I ever said that scheduled surgeries and elective procedures and the like should take place at the weekend. And the more I think about it I don't think that there is the need for it.

 

What I have done is clarify incorrect statements and put forward alternative points of view to those presented in an effort to come to a balanced view of things (a balanced view of things that is very much missing on a left leaning board). In that I have been unsuccessful as I still don't know where I stand. Sometimes it's okay to admit that you just don't know. So let's just close the thread and all go on our way.

[PaddockLad 17274]

I honest to god don't think I will ever have a position on this. The simple fact is that this strike is about money. By the BMA's own admission that is the central problem that remains with this contract yet there are several on here who are still maintaining that it is about much more.

It is mostly about money, you're right. But why should the people we should value most in society be penalised in order to provoke a punch up so the government can deem the NHS "ungovernable" or "disfunctional" before they hand it to PPP, Nuffield and Bupa? Not to mention the ones in power who will profit from the whole thing...

[Kevin Carr's Gloves 3894]

Ewerk seems to be constantly saying he has no position on something he quite clearly has a defined position on.

 

Oh and I have worked 9-5 for the last 5 yrs.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Kevin Carr's Gloves

[ewerk 30616]

As I stated, some people like to look at all points of view before making up their mind. Clearly something you aren't familiar with.

[Christmas Tree 4725]

It is mostly about money, you're right. But why should the people we should value most in society be penalised in order to provoke a punch up so the government can deem the NHS "ungovernable" or "disfunctional" before they hand it to PPP, Nuffield and Bupa? Not to mention the ones in power who will profit from the whole thing...

Jesus