Rafa Benitez

[wolfy 12]

3 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

We do have the players to play the 4-2-3-1 formation. We won the Championship with that formation and imo, with a couple of players we'd be able to play that formation in the top flight. We weren't miles away from points against Spurs, and it was missing players+poor performances+good saves that stopped us getting points at Huddersfield.

 

We don't have the players to play 4-4-2 at this level. Too many teams play formations that overload the midfield meaning our centre would be overrun, most teams can hurt you on the counter attack and 4-4-2 would expose us to that. 4-2-3-1 is flexible, pragmatic and plays to our players' strengths.

Yes we do have the players but Rafa is too negative with his set up to get the best out of those players.

We might have had chances against Huddersfield but the reality is we should have had a hat full of chances against them but spend too much time allowing them to put us on the back foot, as we tend to do.

 

We got away with it in the championship but this is a different kettle of fish, Fish.

[wolfy 12]

2 minutes ago, Tom said:

It's going to be interesting to see who they scrape from the barrel once Rafa walks.

 

The players simply aren't good enough and he hasn't been backed. He got his championship squad off the back off massive player sales and this year the club have given him nowt unless he sells that bunch of players nobody wants.

 

Also we're the only club I can remember arguing about the bonus sheet (twice!).

 

If you can't spot the common denominator in 10 years of Mike Ashley's ownership there's really no helping you

 

 

But they are good enough to get us away from relegation if managed properly.

They aren't good enough if Rafa is going to set them out in a negative fashion against all teams.

Horses for courses should be the order of the day but Rafa runs all courses with one blinkered horse.

[The Fish 10856]

Just now, wolfy said:

Yes we do have the players but Rafa is too negative with his set up to get the best out of those players.

We might have had chances against Huddersfield but the reality is we should have had a hat full of chances against them but spend too much time allowing them to put us on the back foot, as we tend to do.

 

We got away with it in the championship but this is a different kettle of fish, Fish.

 

We havent the players to play a more expansive attacking game and it's naive to think that by attacking more we'd win more points. More likely we'd get hammered as teams allow us to push forward, leaving gaps between lines of midfield and defence and gaps between defence and 'keeper. It's all well and good calling to attack, but this man has won a shit load of trophies getting his team to play pragmatically, I'd rather win 1-0 than lose 3-4, dunno about you?

[Park Life 71]

This anti-Rafa PR meme about negativity sure caught on quickly like. They know their audience.

[wolfy 12]

12 minutes ago, The Fish said:

 

We havent the players to play a more expansive attacking game and it's naive to think that by attacking more we'd win more points. More likely we'd get hammered as teams allow us to push forward, leaving gaps between lines of midfield and defence and gaps between defence and 'keeper. It's all well and good calling to attack, but this man has won a shit load of trophies getting his team to play pragmatically, I'd rather win 1-0 than lose 3-4, dunno about you?

Of course we have the players to play a more attacking game.

We'd only get hammered if we didn't balance it out, as in going for the jugular as and when, which is obviously not going to be the case.

We give teams too much attacking freedom against us, without reply for much of a game.

 

We cannot afford to sit back and allow these premier league speed machines to keep battering us. We have to fight fire with fire and take chances.

It's ok saying we won a game one nil whilst we had 2 shots on target and the other team had 12 plus 7 off target, then say we held strong.

It's not about holding strong, it's called being fortunate and is one reason why we tend to lose players to injury, because we are always last ditch attempting to stop  wave after wave of attacking teams.

 

Make teams think about the pace we have and the ability to attack them with full on passing and movement, instead of hopeful balls and stop start passing around their danger area.

If Rafa's attention to detail is as good as said, then he needs to apply it to a balanced formation against the better teams and a more attacking mindset against team on par with us.

Huddersfield were there for the taking, had we been less worried about conceding again and concentrated on taking advantage of their latter leggy defence.

Edited August 25, 2017 by wolfy

[wolfy 12]

Just now, Park Life said:

This anti-Rafa PR meme about negativity sure caught on quickly like. They know their audience.

It's not about catching on. It's there for anyone to see.

[Park Life 71]

Just now, wolfy said:

It's not about catching on. It's there for anyone to see.

What is?

[The Fish 10856]

1 minute ago, wolfy said:

Of course we have the players to play a more attacking game.

We'd only get hammered of we didn't balance it out, as in going for the jugular as and when, which is obviously not going to be the case.

We give teams too much attacking freedom against us, without reply for much of a game.

 

We cannot afford to sit back and allow these premier league speed machines to keep battering us. We have to fight fire with fire and take chances.

It's ok saying we won a game one nil whilst we had 2 shots on target and the other team had 12 plus 7 off target, then say we held strong.

It's not about holding strong, it's called being fortunate and is one reason why we tend to lose players to injury, because we are always last ditch attempting to stop  wave after wave of attacking teams.

 

Make teams think about the pace we have and the ability to attack them with full on passing and movement, instead of hopeful balls and stop start passing around their danger area.

If Rafa's attention to detail is as good as said, then he needs to apply it to a balanced formation against the better teams and a more attacking mindset against team on par with us.

Huddersfield were there for the taking, had we been less worried about conceding again and concentrated on taking advantage of their latter leggy defence.

 

We fundamentally do not have the players to play that expansive brand of football. You're being way too simplistic. Football is no longer about inspiring talented young men to give it their all and hang the tactics board. It's managing periods of play, it's denying the opposition time and space on the ball whilst finding pockets of space for yourself, it's about pulling their team out of position or whatever. 

 

There's a very, very good reason why managers like Ancelotti, Mourinho and Benitez have all won things and dinosaurs like 'Arry Redknapp have won fuck all, by comparison.

[Park Life 71]

21 minutes ago, wolfy said:

But they are good enough to get us away from relegation if managed properly.

They aren't good enough if Rafa is going to set them out in a negative fashion against all teams.

Horses for courses should be the order of the day but Rafa runs all courses with one blinkered horse.

 

[wolfy 12]

1 minute ago, The Fish said:

 

Quote

We fundamentally do not have the players to play that expansive brand of football. You're being way too simplistic. Football is no longer about inspiring talented young men to give it their all and hang the tactics board.

Very clearly it is.

 

 

1 minute ago, The Fish said:

 

Quote

It's managing periods of play, it's denying the opposition time and space on the ball whilst finding pockets of space for yourself, it's about pulling their team out of position or whatever. 

Of course and is something that Rafa fails to allow his players to do on many occasions and instead tried to stop the opposition team from doing exactly that to his team, ending with us eventually being battered for most of the match and last ditch defending.

He needs to strike a balance and also put teams to the sword with what we have attacking wise, which is more than enough to break teams apart if he allows a bit of freedom to do so.

 

 

1 minute ago, The Fish said:

There's a very, very good reason why managers like Ancelotti, Mourinho and Benitez have all won things and dinosaurs like 'Arry Redknapp have won fuck all, by comparison.

Yes there is and it's usually down to lot and lots of money to basically buy in what's needed to saturate the entire pitch with top quality. Something that most managers will never get the chance to do.

Put these managers in lesser teams and they become normal and fighting on the same front with win rates that take massive nose dives.

The real top managers can build their own teams by turning decent players into top players.

[Howmanheyman 33169]

59 minutes ago, Tom said:

It's going to be interesting to see who they scrape from the barrel once Rafa walks.

 

The players simply aren't good enough and he hasn't been backed. He got his championship squad off the back off massive player sales and this year the club have given him nowt unless he sells that bunch of players nobody wants.

 

Also we're the only club I can remember arguing about the bonus sheet (twice!).

 

If you can't spot the common denominator in 10 years of Mike Ashley's ownership there's really no helping you

 

 

Aye, it's a tricky one. On the one hand you've ten years of multi-fuck ups and genuinely astonishing pull your out moments, ten years of unrest or unrest bubbling under the surface, ten years of belittlement of our club, ten years with two relegations squeezed in, ten years with Joe Kinnear getting two calls to help us norveners aht and thinking he was Michael Caine in 'Get Carter'. Ten years of which plenty were spent with Mr bullshit Pardew talking utter shit whilst breaking all kinds of unwanted records, ten years where someone like John Carver, someone who I wouldn't let run the local working men's social club first eleven's football side, was allowed to be our manager, ten years where the debt increased because of the owners decisions, ten years where the ground was renamed to his shit sports company and made a laughing stock for no revenue whatsoever, ten years where you can barely see any advertising revenue opportunities because of the multitude of SD boards, ten years of revenue not growing other than the centralised TV deal, ten years of all this and plenty of other Mike Ashley induced shit......on the other hand Rafa needs to rethink his tactics a bit, apparently and maybe the odd selection or something? Aye, definitely a tricky one, Tom. 

[Meenzer 15524]

5 minutes ago, Howmanheyman said:

Aye, it's a tricky one. On the one hand you've ten years of multi-fuck ups and genuinely astonishing pull your out moments, ten years of unrest or unrest bubbling under the surface, ten years of belittlement of our club, ten years with two relegations squeezed in, ten years with Joe Kinnear getting two calls to help us norveners aht and thinking he was Michael Caine in 'Get Carter'. Ten years of which plenty were spent with Mr bullshit Pardew talking utter shit whilst breaking all kinds of unwanted records, ten years where someone like John Carver, someone who I wouldn't let run the local working men's social club first eleven's football side, was allowed to be our manager, ten years where the debt increased because of the owners decisions, ten years where the ground was renamed to his shit sports company and made a laughing stock for no revenue whatsoever, ten years where you can barely see any advertising revenue opportunities because of the multitude of SD boards, ten years of revenue not growing other than the centralised TV deal, ten years of all this and plenty of other Mike Ashley induced shit......on the other hand Rafa needs to rethink his tactics a bit, apparently and maybe the odd selection or something? Aye, definitely a tricky one, Tom. 

 

 

[Alex 35077]

24 minutes ago, Howmanheyman said:

Aye, it's a tricky one. On the one hand you've ten years of multi-fuck ups and genuinely astonishing pull your out moments, ten years of unrest or unrest bubbling under the surface, ten years of belittlement of our club, ten years with two relegations squeezed in, ten years with Joe Kinnear getting two calls to help us norveners aht and thinking he was Michael Caine in 'Get Carter'. Ten years of which plenty were spent with Mr bullshit Pardew talking utter shit whilst breaking all kinds of unwanted records, ten years where someone like John Carver, someone who I wouldn't let run the local working men's social club first eleven's football side, was allowed to be our manager, ten years where the debt increased because of the owners decisions, ten years where the ground was renamed to his shit sports company and made a laughing stock for no revenue whatsoever, ten years where you can barely see any advertising revenue opportunities because of the multitude of SD boards, ten years of revenue not growing other than the centralised TV deal, ten years of all this and plenty of other Mike Ashley induced shit......on the other hand Rafa needs to rethink his tactics a bit, apparently and maybe the odd selection or something? Aye, definitely a tricky one, Tom. 

 

[Alex 35077]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

It's going to be interesting to see who they scrape from the barrel once Rafa walks.

 

The players simply aren't good enough and he hasn't been backed. He got his championship squad off the back off massive player sales and this year the club have given him nowt unless he sells that bunch of players nobody wants.

 

Also we're the only club I can remember arguing about the bonus sheet (twice!).

 

If you can't spot the common denominator in 10 years of Mike Ashley's ownership there's really no helping you

 

 

I think you might be onto something

[wykikitoon 20129]

[strawb 4248]

Hire that Chile manager who plays 3-1-3-3.

 

or maybe write the team down as a 4-4-2 so we have 2 upfront.

[wykikitoon 20129]

37 minutes ago, Ant said:

 

I don't think we do tbh, our cm is woeful, we won the championship because it's beyond shite, we'd have won that playing a different formation as well (or at least got promotion)

fwiw i don't think any formation would solve our problems atm other than to defend for draws, our core is weak 

 

you need one creative spark with composure, and one reliable dm these days, we don't have the quality in either imo.

(ignoring the fact we won't play mitro up top or sign someone better than a stoke outcast)

 

Nail on the head

[The Fish 10856]

5 hours ago, Ant said:

 

I don't think we do tbh, our cm is woeful, we won the championship because it's beyond shite, we'd have won that playing a different formation as well (or at least got promotion)

fwiw i don't think any formation would solve our problems atm other than to defend for draws, our core is weak 

 

you need one creative spark with composure, and one reliable dm these days, we don't have the quality in either imo.

(ignoring the fact we won't play mitro up top or sign someone better than a stoke outcast)

 

Think you're being harsh, but essentially if Benitez can get consistency and composure from Shelvey and Hayden keeps improving I think we do have sufficient quality in the centre to stay up. Not exciting, but with Ashley holding the purse strings, that's as exciting as it can be in this season.

 

 

[Dr Gloom 21915]

So not at all exciting, in other words.

[The Fish 10856]

5 hours ago, wolfy said:

Very clearly it is.

Is it shite man. Look at the most successful managers, they're not just motivators, they're tacticians. If you can't see football is more complicated than naming 11 players and geeing them up, you're a fucking idiot.

5 hours ago, wolfy said:

Of course and is something that Rafa fails to allow his players to do on many occasions and instead tried to stop the opposition team from doing exactly that to his team, ending with us eventually being battered for most of the match and last ditch defending.

He needs to strike a balance and also put teams to the sword with what we have attacking wise, which is more than enough to break teams apart if he allows a bit of freedom to do so.

 

We dominated possession, chances and goals in most games in the Championship. So you're full of shit in that regard. We don't have enough attacking wise to be more expansive, that's patently obvious to everybody. We need to be solid, pragmatic, not cavalier and expansive. We simply don't have the quality across the pitch to play a game that's particularly pleasing on the eye at the moment. Few in the top flight do. 

 

 

5 hours ago, wolfy said:

 

Yes there is and it's usually down to lot and lots of money to basically buy in what's needed to saturate the entire pitch with top quality. Something that most managers will never get the chance to do.

Put these managers in lesser teams and they become normal and fighting on the same front with win rates that take massive nose dives.

The real top managers can build their own teams by turning decent players into top players.

 

Like who? Name for me a top contemporary manager that built a team of decent players into a team of top players? 

[wolfy 12]

1 hour ago, The Fish said:

Quote

Is it shite man. Look at the most successful managers, they're not just motivators, they're tacticians. If you can't see football is more complicated than naming 11 players and geeing them up, you're a fucking idiot.

It's much less complicated than what is made out.

The point still stands and that point is, you build a football TEAM to play in 3 parts of the pitch.

That means defensive battles and midfield battles, as well as attacking the opposition back-line.

The word 'tactical' has took on a pathetic scientific meaning when 'tactics' in the true meaning is much easily implemented by any competent manager and a competent squad of players with motivation and ability.

 

1 hour ago, The Fish said:

Quote

We dominated possession, chances and goals in most games in the Championship. So you're full of shit in that regard.

 

We aren't in the championship, we are in the premier league and he cannot continue to play negative for most of the game, in most games or the fans will soon get pissed off and Rfa will soon find out that he's not a god.

He bought strikers and wingers and has plenty of attacking options.

He should use them, because we aren't going for titles or champions league slots. We are supposed to give a full account of ourselves and have a crack, then build from there.

I'm not asking for full on attack all game. I'm asking for a full on balanced performance that includes it when the opportunity presents itself.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Fish said:

 

Quote

We don't have enough attacking wise to be more expansive, that's patently obvious to everybody. We need to be solid, pragmatic, not cavalier and expansive.

We do have enough attacking wise. We don't use it properly.

Nobody is asking for cavalier style.

Needing to be solid is a complete load of baloney if you think that's how we are set up.

We are set up home and away as a defensive/cautious outfit that relies on a wing and a prayer in keeping a clean sheet and the hope of nicking a goal.

Rafa is far too negative in his tactical set up and it's no wonder players look frustrated at times.

 

1 hour ago, The Fish said:

 

Quote

We simply don't have the quality across the pitch to play a game that's particularly pleasing on the eye at the moment. Few in the top flight do. 

We have enough quality across the pitch to give most teams a decent game and a bloody nose. We don't have enough bottle to go and do it in the team because Rafa appears to be telling them to be cautious.

That's why we tend to fall apart when we do forage into the opposition half.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Fish said:

 

Like who? Name for me a top contemporary manager that built a team of decent players into a team of top players? 

Diego Simeone.

[Alex 35077]

Simeone's a good manager but that's bollocks. Also funny as fuck that you're advocating Rafa giving the players more freedom whilst extolling Simeone's virtues.

[Park Life 71]

[Dr Gloom 21915]

It does appear that wolfy talks almost as much shite about football as he does over on general chat

[Kid Dynamite 7025]

9 hours ago, The Fish said:

 

We do have the players to play the 4-2-3-1 formation. We won the Championship with that formation and imo, with a couple of players we'd be able to play that formation in the top flight. We weren't miles away from points against Spurs, and it was missing players+poor performances+good saves that stopped us getting points at Huddersfield.

 

We don't have the players to play 4-4-2 at this level. Too many teams play formations that overload the midfield meaning our centre would be overrun, most teams can hurt you on the counter attack and 4-4-2 would expose us to that. 4-2-3-1 is flexible, pragmatic and plays to our players' strengths.

 

We played 4411 in the championship. Shelvey/Hayden in CM, Richie/Atsu on the wings and Gouffran/Perez/Diame supporting Gayle