Donald Trump

[Ayatollah Hermione 13789]

33 minutes ago, Alex said:

Yeah, I agree with that although my point earlier ties in with Meenzer’s about the people who actually bother voting. 

The ones in my experience did but they went and voted for Reform. If the Tories get a brain between them, they could quite easily shift their rhetoric towards Reform’s and mobilise a lot of working class voters IMO. Though that might be the cynicism in me 

[Dr Gloom 21807]

The other thing to point out is that you could almost forgive America in 2016. Maybe it was something they needed to get out of their system. He didn’t win the popular vote, he only lasted a single term.

 

This time he has a clear mandate and the popular vote and control of the senate and the house. This is America and trump can pretty much do what he wants 

Edited 1 hour ago by Dr Gloom

[Rayvin 5170]

53 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

Well I am sure there is some hypocrisy on my part which frankly I can't help such is my dislike of Corbyn. I've never blamed Corbyn for what Johnson did in power but you're right, I apportion blame in him giving him such a huge landslide. That said, I think I have told you why I dislike Corbyn plenty of times in the past, and why I blame him for neutering the LAbour party, some which you agreed, some which you didn't, so let's not rehearse that again, it's ancient history now. 

 

I'm genuinely curious as to what people (including you) think Harris got wrong in the campaign. She was civil, she played by the rules, her opponent did not, was this her downfall? Was it the economic legacy she left alongside Biden, with the US economcy being described as a miracle by economists? Was it Jo Biden's inflation reduction act which will powerhouse the US over the next decade (the US economy has increased 50% compared with the EU over the last few years, their median wage is now staggering compared with ours). Was it the ineveitable inflation following covid they failed to adequately explain? Was it immigration? Was she too left wing (dubbed a communist) or not right wing enough? 

 

Or was it the due to the toxic nature of the disinformation spewed out by Trump and his allies which was gratefully lapped up by a fundamentally mysogynistic and racist nation of proto-fascists and religious authoritarian loving nut jobs? Cos that is what I think is the main reason. And I don't see how she could have changed that, and I don't see anyway the democrats can change it now as they have basically lost their democracy in that country. 

 

So yes, I blame Trump, not Harris. 

 

 

 

 

 

It's not about Harris, the failure is far bigger than her. Though I think one could argue that dithering over Biden being able to run or not and then airdropping her into candidacy without any internal democratic process was probably not the play.

 

In my view though, this wasn't lost in the campaign. It was lost in the 4 years of Biden in power. Its the longer term systemic rot in the Dems that is the issue. Simply defining themselves by not being the other side worked once, but doesn't appear to work twice. Hence my view that Labour should take note.

[Gemmill 44329]

 

I preordered this about 6 months ago. What a day for it to finally be delivered. 

[spongebob toonpants 3931]

2 hours ago, The Fish said:

No grandpa, it's you lot.

So much blaming the voters in this thread, its the olds fault, it's the youngsters fault, it's the Hispanics fault.

 

No its not

1 hour ago, Renton said:

I'm genuinely curious as to what people (including you) think Harris got wrong in the campaign. She was civil, she played by the rules, her opponent did not, was this her downfall? Was it the economic legacy she left alongside Biden, with the US economcy being described as a miracle by economists?

 

It's no good proclaiming an economic miracle when inflation means the poor can't put a meal on the table

 

The Democrats didn't win because they didn't give people anything to vote for. Their whole platform was orange man bad. 

Their whole platform was a money making excercisr and viewed from that perspective it was a resounding success. How many times did you hear how they were outperforming Trump on raising money.

Now they can go into overdrive raising more money for the next election 

 

Starmer needs to take note here (he won't) Labour needs to make people's lives better not just be manegerially more proficient. Inflation cost the Dems and in reality its probably what got Labour elected.

 

Most voters are low information. 5 and 10 year plans to gradually turn things round when they are seen to be cutting pensions putting the poorest bus fares up and leaving children starving

 

Also don't underestimate the Dem/Labour response to Gaza in depressing support. I've heard Trump will be worse for Gaza. How exactly, it's already a fucking genocide supported by UK/USA

 

So basically stop blaming the voters and the leftists when the centrists, let's be honest neither Dem/Lab are in any way left, offer them nothing

Edited 1 hour ago by spongebob toonpants
I can't fucking spell

[Toonpack 9193]

We're in a "now now now" society you even see it in football content, lose a game "burn it all down". I can't see what the solution is tbh because fixing an economy is not a short term thing it is 5-10 years of long term planning/execution and we are in a place where we need to fix an economy AND radically change the population's mindset whilst other forces willfully manipulate it.

 

So as I seem to keep saying, fuck it.

 

Just a thought - What would happen if someone shot the cunt/he choked on a big Mac before Jan 6th ?? Could be something to cling on to.

Edited 1 hour ago by Toonpack

[The Fish 10695]

17 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

So much blaming the voters in this thread, its the olds fault, it's the youngsters fault, it's the Hispanics fault.

My tongue is firmly in my cheek. It's the Democratic party's fault. They didn't mobilise/inspire enough of the undecideds. And, like you say, their platform was "We're not the other guy" is not going to be all that exciting, especially when the other guy is promising the moon on a stick. 

 

I do blame the older generations for Brexit, and I do think a large part of Trump's base is the older voters. Because Brexit and Trump were promises of the good old days without any pesky details on how. I worry though, that the conservative position of the older voter is going to be replaced by a large number of soft-fascistic voters from the young male block. 

[Renton 21253]

10 minutes ago, spongebob toonpants said:

So basically stop blaming the voters and the leftists when the centrists, let's be honest neither Dem/Lab are in any way left, offer them nothing

 

I don't care how low information voters are, I will never understand the appeal of Trump in terms of simple moral decency apart from anything else. I can see Biden/Harris not appealing  in the toxic morasse of social media and with real inequality and cost of living concerns, but Trump as the answer for the MAJORITY of Americans? Fuck me, no. 

I've said before though comparing the US with the UK is pointless. Superficially some similarites but culturally, demographically, literally different continents. I have to believe we are not like them, that the majority here would not go for Farage. Johnson was bad enough but at least the system worked and he was turfed out. If I'm wrong and we are also morally bankrupt, I find that the most profoundly depressing thing of all. 

[Toonpack 9193]

You're wrong and we are

[spongebob toonpants 3931]

12 minutes ago, Renton said:

 

I don't care how low information voters are, I will never understand the appeal of Trump in terms of simple moral decency apart from anything else. I can see Biden/Harris not appealing  in the toxic morasse of social media and with real inequality and cost of living concerns, but Trump as the answer for the MAJORITY of Americans? Fuck me, no. 

I've said before though comparing the US with the UK is pointless. Superficially some similarites but culturally, demographically, literally different continents. I have to believe we are not like them, that the majority here would not go for Farage. Johnson was bad enough but at least the system worked and he was turfed out. If I'm wrong and we are also morally bankrupt, I find that the most profoundly depressing thing of all. 

 

The US and UK  are the same, and Johnson and Trump are the same except US is ruled by money and UK by class

 

The same will happen here unless Labour radically improve the lives of the poor and the disengaged. This won't happen with a sensible 5/10 year plan it will only happen if they address Brexit and properly tax wealth and fix the country from the bottom up

 

Without this, and let's face it, it's not happening Labour hasn't a hope in hell of being re-elected and whichever loon is leading the Tories or Farage or Johnson will be back

[spongebob toonpants 3931]

Also they didn't vote for Trump because they liked him, on the whole they don't,they voted for him because they believed he was better for them financially. Its not a moral judgement its a fiscal one

[Gemmill 44329]

People voting for Mr Hitler bantz who know all the bad shit and just do it cos they think their financial situation might be 1% better off though. Those people can get fucked. I don't see why we can't blame those people. 

[spongebob toonpants 3931]

2 minutes ago, Gemmill said:

People voting for Mr Hitler bantz who know all the bad shit and just do it cos they think their financial situation might be 1% better off though. Those people can get fucked. I don't see why we can't blame those people. 

Because if you blame them you aren't addressing the problem and we will keep losing 

[Ayatollah Hermione 13789]

Aye. It’s alright saying “haha, they so silly and uninformed” when they’re the ones who are basically helping lurch the world to the right because they’re listening to the one group of people who are paying attention to them. It’s racist and impossible promises but the alternative side is offering them fuck all.

 

Brexit had a rational side and a side offering the land of milk and honey. Which one won out?

 

This US Election had the status quo or the bloke lying about making everyone better off. Which one won?

[Rayvin 5170]

I struggle with this idea of blaming the voters because I absolutely do blame people in this country who refuse to acknowledge the disaster that Brexit has been. It winds me up no end. But that said... I don't think it's the most effective medium for changing anything, cathartic as it is. I would rather argue that throwing my hands up and yelling at them is something I can do because I've given up, not because I'm trying to change anyone's mind.

 

Changing minds has to be done with a fully inclusive approach that speaks to even some of the murkier concerns that people have, if only to move them beyond their current thinking. It cannot be done by just calling them names and chastising them for being weak or pathetic. The difference there is what we want to do vs what we need to do.

[Alex 34810]

I would think even Biden, late in the campaign, referring to them as trash would’ve motivated Trump supporters to get out there and vote. And may have even swayed undecided voters into deciding the Democrats had little to offer other than not being Trump. 

[Gemmill 44329]

The only way to get the messaging right is to dismantle centralised social media. The next 4 years is gonna be Trump doing what he wants, and the algorithm telling everyone what a good lad he is. 

 

Who knows, maybe they even build some messaging in to soften everyone up to the idea that, maybe there's no need for an election in 2028, etc. 

 

They had their chance to block Musk even buying twitter. He only did it as a fucking joke, but now the joke is on everybody else. He's got a job in the White House.