Donald Trump

[Rayvin 5147]

Per my comment in the politics thread, I do think that general trend should worry us. 

[Dazzler 9157]

1 hour ago, Gemmill said:

 

 

 

Nothing screams “nuclear family dad” more than an awkward looking, malnourished specky bloke on a velour bedspread inappropriately groping a cat.

[RobinRobin 11013]

[Rayvin 5147]

Incels aren't born though, they're made. Don't think we should wash our hands of it - if our rhetoric isn't speaking to young men, that's actually our problem.

 

Who is the left wing version of Andrew Tate exactly? I find a lot of virtuous good in left wing masculinity but no one ever seems to be prepared to say anything positive about it. It's all warnings to behave in a certain way and grouping all men into a single negative category that a lot of them are clearly not mature enough to handle dealing with. I do some work alongside younger men and you can see that they are decent guys, but that they feel attacked quite often. Seems like they want positive messaging to move towards and will take it in whatever guise it comes. Much like literally everyone else does. We can't afford not to speak to them IMO.

[The Fish 10645]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

Incels aren't born though, they're made. Don't think we should wash our hands of it - if our rhetoric isn't speaking to young men, that's actually our problem.

 

Who is the left wing version of Andrew Tate exactly? I find a lot of virtuous good in left wing masculinity but no one ever seems to be prepared to say anything positive about it. It's all warnings to behave in a certain way and grouping all men into a single negative category that a lot of them are clearly not mature enough to handle dealing with. I do some work alongside younger men and you can see that they are decent guys, but that they feel attacked quite often. Seems like they want positive messaging to move towards and will take it in whatever guise it comes. Much like literally everyone else does. We can't afford not to speak to them IMO.

I don't there is an analogue, and I don't think there should be one, ya cuck.

[Alex 34632]

Not really sure I know what a left wing version of a people trafficking, tiny cocked misogynistic cunt who’s a hero of the thick as fuck misinformed should be like.  

[strawb 4158]

Yeah that’s a mental post. We shouldn’t be pushing an example of a left wing equivalent of Andrew fucking Tate. We should be pushing the the exact opposite of that creature

[RobinRobin 11013]

Perhaps the appropriate positive message is that women deserve respect and it isn't woke to call young men out for expecting women to be their plaything. 

[Rayvin 5147]

4 hours ago, Alex said:

Not really sure I know what a left wing version of a people trafficking, tiny cocked misogynistic cunt who’s a hero of the thick as fuck misinformed should be like.  

 

I mean you're looking at him through our lens though. To them, he's someone who empowers and speaks positively for young men. You may disagree with this, but that's how they see him. So when I say we need a left wing version of him, what I mean is that we need a left wing role model who can share a positive vision for young men to aspire to that speaks to their needs and desires rather than scolds them, but does it in a non-toxic/harmful way.

 

Or, y'know, we can keep losing.

[Rayvin 5147]

1 hour ago, RobinRobin said:

Perhaps the appropriate positive message is that women deserve respect and it isn't woke to call young men out for expecting women to be their plaything. 

 

I think we're already sharing that message mate. Doesn't seem to be working that well on winning over young men on its own. We need to be giving them something positive for themselves in all this too, is my point. There are positive messages from a left wing perspective of course, but Tate has somehow conquered several of them already. He's about physical and mental well-being believe it or not - the fact that he's toxic as fuck (even for men) is irrelevant, he's operating in a vacuum as far as positive messaging for men goes, so he gets to say whatever the fuck he likes.

 

There are a fairly scary number of young men following this guy now, or aligned with his ideology.

 

EDIT: I am just gonna add here that I despise Andrew Tate, that I've stood up in front of groups of these young men before and called him and his narratives out, and that you can get a surprising distance with some actual positive messaging in such conversations to the point at least of it becoming clear that they will listen if someone bothers to take the time to talk. Which is why I thought someone higher profile who could generate a following around some positive ideas might be a good idea. I recognise now that such thinking is 'mental' and that we have already solved this by burying our heads in the sand  

[RobinRobin 11013]

Fair enough. Unfortunately, as we see in the USA especially, there's too many who simply would never listen to the mythical left wing alternative.

They prefer to hear only what social media forces on them to reinforce their self-obsessed narrative that it's wokism which makes them unappealing to women, not that they're ugly misogynist pricks. 

[Rayvin 5147]

I don't think we can just wash our hands like that though. They're young, it is possible to get through to them but we just don't actually bother to do this. I mean I just spent the last few minutes trying to imagine what the 'left wing idea' of positive masculinity was, and it's actually a little challenging to do. Even when you have established some themes, how often are any of us saying it out loud. And if we're not, why do we expect that anyone else is?

 

I came across this article before on Gen Z in the US: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/aug/07/gen-z-voters-political-ideology-gender-gap

 

Polls indicate that young men’s views on gender, femininity and masculinity are rapidly shifting. In 2022, 49% of gen Z men said that the United States had become “too soft and feminine”, Deckman found. Just a year later, 60% of gen Z men said the same. Deckman found that those who agreed with the statement were far more likely to have voted for Trump in 2016 – even after controlling for political party.

 

That's quite a shift for 1 year. We're losing ground rapidly because we're doing fuck all.

[Rayvin 5147]

Also I wouldn't suggest that the messaging be that 'they're ugly, misogynist pricks'. It should be one of empowerment and compassion. Outlining that men have a lot to offer the world, that 'masculine' traits of strength and responsibility are important and needed in society, and that positive relationships with women are fundamentally important in permitting a man to live a happy life. That they don't need to define themselves by whether they're in a relationship or not, and that they don't need validation by women or other men.

 

I don't see the left carrying anything resembling this message, not that I'm claiming my 4am ramblings should be gospel. I see a lot of the 'ugly, misogynist pricks' bit around, but if I was them that rhetoric would just make me dig my heels in all the more as a middle finger to the people saying it. And while we may enjoy saying it, the longer these guys are off the deep end, the more harm they do to themselves and others.

[Gemmill 43837]

Who was this person when you were young though? Why does this generation of young men need this? I didn't have anything like that when I was a kid. I had parents and family and a basic grasp of what was a cunty way of looking at the world. 

 

Young men in previous generations would have gathered in the street to chuck bricks at the likes of Andrew Tate when he turned up in their town to spew his nonsense. 

 

Is this entirely social media driven? Is that why we need to find someone on the left that can deliver a message that these kids can believe in. 

[RobinRobin 11013]

58 minutes ago, Rayvin said:

Also I wouldn't suggest that the messaging be that 'they're ugly, misogynist pricks'. It should be one of empowerment and compassion. Outlining that men have a lot to offer the world, that 'masculine' traits of strength and responsibility are important and needed in society, and that positive relationships with women are fundamentally important in permitting a man to live a happy life. That they don't need to define themselves by whether they're in a relationship or not, and that they don't need validation by women or other men.

 

I don't see the left carrying anything resembling this message, not that I'm claiming my 4am ramblings should be gospel. I see a lot of the 'ugly, misogynist pricks' bit around, but if I was them that rhetoric would just make me dig my heels in all the more as a middle finger to the people saying it. And while we may enjoy saying it, the longer these guys are off the deep end, the more harm they do to themselves and others.

I wasn't suggesting that was the messaging they should be given. It was simply my view of them. 

The algorithms reinforce their world view and those same Twitter algorithms (without any moderation from Musk's version of it) are becoming more sophisticated every year. 

When did Musk take over and start stripping the moderation department? 

[Alex 34632]

1 hour ago, Rayvin said:

 

I mean you're looking at him through our lens though. To them, he's someone who empowers and speaks positively for young men. You may disagree with this, but that's how they see him. So when I say we need a left wing version of him, what I mean is that we need a left wing role model who can share a positive vision for young men to aspire to that speaks to their needs and desires rather than scolds them, but does it in a non-toxic/harmful way.

 

Or, y'know, we can keep losing.

I was being facetious but the people you’re talking about have been lost because social media and the internet in general is a ‘wild west’. And one where they’re sold lies because it’s in the interests of foreign powers who want to see the end of democracy as we know it. I see the likes of Andrew Tate as a result of that rather than its driver. It’s obviously not quite as simple as certain parties driving everything. But I really don’t know how you provide a ‘truthful’ alternative from a left wing perspective to people who despise women because they’re abhorrent to women 

[ewerk 30082]

2 hours ago, Rayvin said:

 

I mean you're looking at him through our lens though. To them, he's someone who empowers and speaks positively for young men. You may disagree with this, but that's how they see him. So when I say we need a left wing version of him, what I mean is that we need a left wing role model who can share a positive vision for young men to aspire to that speaks to their needs and desires rather than scolds them, but does it in a non-toxic/harmful way.

 

Or, y'know, we can keep losing.

This guy 

 

 

[Gemmill 43837]

My mam and my sister have been totally radicalised by social media. I have to not get into certain conversations with them because it makes me hate them. 

 

I go on dog walks with my dad and he'll come out with completely batty shit about the World Economic Forum or how the government is trying to force pensioners off the road because of net zero. He likes to talk about fifteen minute cities and how they're already setting them up. My stepmam accidentally let slip that they had the covid horse tranquiliser in the house cos my dad had got some just in case (neither of them is vaccinated).

 

It's fucking embarrassing to listen to. 

 

I think there's an element of personal responsibility here to pull yourself back from the brink on this stuff. If I was a young man, Andrew Tate and his brother being sex traffickers might have been that moment for me. 

[Monkeys Fist 41793]

2 hours ago, Gemmill said:

My mam and my sister have been totally radicalised by social media. I have to not get into certain conversations with them because it makes me hate them. 

 

I go on dog walks with my dad and he'll come out with completely batty shit about the World Economic Forum or how the government is trying to force pensioners off the road because of net zero. He likes to talk about fifteen minute cities and how they're already setting them up. My stepmam accidentally let slip that they had the covid horse tranquiliser in the house cos my dad had got some just in case (neither of them is vaccinated).

 

It's fucking embarrassing to listen to. 

 

I think there's an element of personal responsibility here to pull yourself back from the brink on this stuff. If I was a young man, Andrew Tate and his brother being sex traffickers might have been that moment for me. 

I was waiting to get my wagon loaded at the weekend, and found out via FB that a lad I’d worked with had died suddenly (from what sounds like a massive heart attack)  in rather distressing circumstances*
I visibly and physically reacted, and one of the loaders asked if I was ok, whereupon I told him what I’d just learned. 
His immediate reaction was not to express sympathy or empathy, not even to shrug it off and crack on with his job… nope. 
He asked me if I was on Telegram, as he reached for his phone. 
 

I knew what was coming. 
 

Started in about how the Covid vaccine had caused an “upspike” ( his word vomit, not mine), in sudden cardiac arrests, blah blah fucking blah. 
 

I cut him off, as nicely as I could, and said “Look mate, let’s agree to disagree on this”

Didn’t even register… on he went. 
“ Mate, you can stop. Well just disagree, aye?”

Nope. On he went with the crazy. 

That was enough for me, like. 
 

So I gave him a concentrated blast of righteous shut-the-fuck-up and a quick lesson in appropriate responses to death 

 

I wasn’t a happy bunny.  
 

I may have asked him if he had anymore disabilities, other than terminal gullibility and extreme deafness, as I’d need to know before I shoved his phone up his arse. 
 

I honestly think he still didn’t realise what he’d done wrong, the thick fuck. 

These dumb fuckers are balls-deep in the cult of stupidity and there is no arguing with them, “do your research !”

 

* my mate was walking in the Lakes with his 15yr old son when he died, so the poor lad had to call MR and wait with his dead father for them to get there. 

 

[Gemmill 43837]

That's awful about your mate, and especially for his son.

 

Telegram is the home of Russian propaganda. It's where most of this shit gets startedm

 

That local DJ dying after she got the vaccine was enough to convince my sister that it was more dangerous than the virus. 

 

I was at my mam's last week and mentioned the lad who died in the GNR. "Yeah I wondered if it was the vaccine" came the response. 

 

What really blows my mind with my mam and sister is the amount of basic shit I get a phone call for. Working out some fairly basic maths. They can't find this or that show on IPTV. My nephew needs help with a presentation for a job interview. My niece needs help with her maths homework. 

 

And yet their knowledge about Brexit and its impact on trade, or the effect of the Covid vaccine on cardiac death in young men is unimpeachable. 

[Gemmill 43837]

I'll say this for my mam though. If she'd caught me watching Andrew Tate videos as a teenager or spouting some of his lines about women, I'd have been told "if I ever hear anything like that come out of your mouth again, I'll take the side of your face off*", and that would have been that.

 

 

*take the side of your face off was a particular favourite of hers. 

[Alex 34632]

15 minutes ago, Monkeys Fist said:

I was waiting to get my wagon loaded at the weekend, and found out via FB that a lad I’d worked with had died suddenly (from what sounds like a massive heart attack)  in rather distressing circumstances*
I visibly and physically reacted, and one of the loaders asked if I was ok, whereupon I told him what I’d just learned. 
His immediate reaction was not to express sympathy or empathy, not even to shrug it off and crack on with his job… nope. 
He asked me if I was on Telegram, as he reached for his phone. 
 

I knew what was coming. 
 

Started in about how the Covid vaccine had caused an “upspike” ( his word vomit, not mine), in sudden cardiac arrests, blah blah fucking blah. 
 

I cut him off, as nicely as I could, and said “Look mate, let’s agree to disagree on this”

Didn’t even register… on he went. 
“ Mate, you can stop. Well just disagree, aye?”

Nope. On he went with the crazy. 

That was enough for me, like. 
 

So I gave him a concentrated blast of righteous shut-the-fuck-up and a quick lesson in appropriate responses to death 

 

I wasn’t a happy bunny.  
 

I may have asked him if he had anymore disabilities, other than terminal gullibility and extreme deafness, as I’d need to know before I shoved his phone up his arse. 
 

I honestly think he still didn’t realise what he’d done wrong, the thick fuck. 

These dumb fuckers are balls-deep in the cult of stupidity and there is no arguing with them, “do your research !”

 

* my mate was walking in the Lakes with his 15yr old son when he died, so the poor lad had to call MR and wait with his dead father for them to get there. 

 

Really sorry to hear about your mate. Also, what sort of reaction is that? Even if that’s what the colleague was thinking. You’ve just had an awful fucking gut wrenching shock ffs. 

Edited October 19 by Alex

[Monkeys Fist 41793]

3 minutes ago, Alex said:

Really sorry to hear about your mate. Also, what sort of reaction is that? Even if that’s what the colleague was thinking. You’ve just had an awful fucking gut wrenching shock ffs. 

Aye, that’s what took me somewhat by surprise- there wasn’t even a moment’s hesitation before his mind went straight to 

“I’m a Covidiot, this is my time to shine”. 
 

I really feel for his son- only child, his dad loved him and he idolised his dad. 
He’s a delicate young lad at the best of times, so this has destroyed him. 
 

Poor lad

[Alex 34632]

3 hours ago, Gemmill said:

My mam and my sister have been totally radicalised by social media. I have to not get into certain conversations with them because it makes me hate them. 

 

I go on dog walks with my dad and he'll come out with completely batty shit about the World Economic Forum or how the government is trying to force pensioners off the road because of net zero. He likes to talk about fifteen minute cities and how they're already setting them up. My stepmam accidentally let slip that they had the covid horse tranquiliser in the house cos my dad had got some just in case (neither of them is vaccinated).

 

It's fucking embarrassing to listen to. 

 

I think there's an element of personal responsibility here to pull yourself back from the brink on this stuff. If I was a young man, Andrew Tate and his brother being sex traffickers might have been that moment for me. 

I’m similar with the de facto in laws / brother in law. The latter was sending my lass covid conspiracy shit when she was working in both the RVI on an actual covid ward, then later when she was working back on her normal ward during lockdown. He’s similarly pig ignorant about most things yet an expert on stuff like the effects of the vaccine to Brexit. All ‘big truths’ learnt via social media. My parents less so. Although my mam is more susceptible to that stuff than my dad. In the latter case he’s never been into Facebook (never even had an account) and his being exposed to fake news amounts to his sitting watching Sky Sports News when he’s bored. 
Which leads me to another thing. It’s always the kids who get tarred with brush but that older generation, 70+ are addicted to all that troll-farm driven bollocks on social media. 

[Monkeys Fist 41793]

2 minutes ago, Alex said:

that older generation, 70+ are addicted to all that troll-farm driven bollocks on social media. 

“These two Eastern Europe men in a white van are in your area and WANT TO STEAL YIUR DOG, EVEN IF YOU DON’T HAVE A DOG!”