Renton 21393 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Fuck off with your righteousness man, you've got a right hard on for me today. My righteousness! Fucking hell, you've got some nerve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Dynamite 7009 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 You've been like a dog with a bone in here today having the same argument with numerous different people. I'll spell it out for you. 1 - I blame the idiots who pull the trigger and detonate the bombs. Killing is wrong in anyone's name 2 - I blame the leaders who have invaded the Middle East for their own gain. They have helped create Al Qaeda/Isis, both directly and indirectly. They fucking provided the guns and trained some of them how to build bombs ffs I don't blame the victims (on both sides) or every Muslim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21393 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 You've been like a dog with a bone in here today having the same argument with numerous different people. I'll spell it out for you. 1 - I blame the idiots who pull the trigger and detonate the bombs. Killing is wrong in anyone's name 2 - I blame the leaders who have invaded the Middle East for their own gain. They have helped create Al Qaeda/Isis, both directly and indirectly. They fucking provided the guns and trained some of them how to build bombs ffs I don't blame the victims (on both sides) or every Muslim And 3 - If you don't agree with me you're a racist, even if you're my best mate? Your point 1 is obvious, your point 2 is massively debatable. To specifically blame Cameron and Obama on the night as it was happening was imo infantile and tasteless though. Like Gloomy I just thought it was odd to bring that up straight away before even showing empathy for the victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorthernsoul 1221 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 In no way am I excusing these sick, deranged extremist cunts. They truly are fucked up. But if the West really wanted to end IS they could easily IMO but for monetary reasons. The Islamic shit has been going on for centuries and will do for ever more, it can be controlled though. My take on history might be a little skewed, any historians feel free to correct me. But the full timeline is: Mohammed rises to prominence in Mecca/Medina. His followers realise that the true seat of religious power in the Middle East is Jerusalem. So, on the pretext that Mohammed visited the city on a winged horse, they capture it, rip down Jewish and Christian holy sites and proclaim it for Islam. The Crusades were launched to take Jerusalem back. Meanwhile, Islam spread across North Africa and then expanded into Spain. After centuries, the reconquest took back Spain and it became Christian again (many Muslims are still crying foul over that. Once Muslim land, always Muslim land.) The Ottoman Empire expanded in all directions, even reaching Austria. The Arab/Islam golden age faded, and Western powers became dominant. Oil was discovered by Western companies in Arabia. The Saudis, especially, saw their new wealth as God-given, and assumed their divine mission was to export Islamism around the world to make the religion dominant again. The Sunni Saudis and the similarly oil-rich Shia Iranians began to clash over who were the true inheritors of Islam. Against this backdrop, the West got involved in two Gulf Wars. The first was just: Saddam had invaded Kuwait, and there was a large coalition, including many Arab nations, to liberate it. US troops on the holy soil of Saudi was a red rag to some Islamists. Two attempts were made to bomb the World Trade Centre in retribution. 9/11 succeeded. Many mistakes have been made since then, but to put all the blame for the current situation on 'us' is absurd and flies in the face of history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Even Maher has made the link: But bombing them over there is what is causing the Paris thing to happen! That connection needs to be made. We dont have to be bombing them there, said Maher, before discussing how the U.S. military should vacate the Middle East and let other Middle East countries take on the fight against ISIS. We just need popcorn! Just sit back and watch this! he exclaimed. This is crazy! Proving it is possible to be a vocal critic of Islam and realise that invading half a dozen Muslim countries might exacerbate radicalism. I don't see why it's even controversial. The CIA have long documented the link between middle eastern intervention and terrorist activity. The policy is that the price is worth paying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face 29 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 "We have gone a long way down the road of creating a situation where we are creating more enemies than we are removing from the battlefield. We are already there with regards to Pakistan and Afghanistan," Former CIA counter terrorism head Robert Grenier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gloom 21847 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 How many random innocent civilians have died in Syria this year? Do you think the young men, women and children over there are not saying exactly the same thing to each other? It's 2 sides of the same coin man. It can't be right for us to do it but not them? The answer is none of it is fucking right. you think the french kid who blew himself up in paris yesterday did so because of the war in syria? he did so because he's a fucking lunatic, who believes he's got a dozen virgins waiting for him in the afterlife, or whatever nonsense it is he's been indoctrinated to believe. i'm in no way attempting here to defend misguided intervention, and war crimes, by western powers by the way. it just wasn't the first thing that entered my head as last night's horrific events unfolded. and while one has helped the cause of the other, i think it's a stretch to say it has created it, or that the terrorists are somehow absolved of some of the blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorthernsoul 1221 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 People have totally missed this aswell. http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21678490-jihadist-group-attacks-hizbullah-stronghold-islamic-state-claims-twin-bombs?fsrc=scn/fb/te/bl/ed/islamicstateclaimstwinbombsinbeirut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimaad22 4145 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 How many random innocent civilians have died in Syria this year? Do you think the young men, women and children over there are not saying exactly the same thing to each other? It's 2 sides of the same coin man. It can't be right for us to do it but not them? The answer is none of it is fucking right. Aye. Its funny. Almost everything bad happening down here is attributed to the US, the CIA or 'Western imperialism' in general. You'll get tons of people talking about it, whether its terrorism, economic issues or anything else. What I often argue is you've got to leave them alone and bloody concentrate on what our fucking rulers are doing and not doing. Anybody making that sort of argument is quickly labelled a liberal or western sympathizer. Yet when one comes on here or other social media and have similar discussions with people in the west about what their governments are doing, you'll inevitably get called a terrorist apologist or fundamentalist or something of the sort. (Speaking in general, people on this forum are a lot more objective in my experience) Dont know what to make of it. Blood Diamond was a good movie. Was watching it some days back and this debate just reminded me of one of the lines, something like: "We thought we were fighting communism, but it was just about who gets what". Always what I believed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 People have totally missed this aswell. http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21678490-jihadist-group-attacks-hizbullah-stronghold-islamic-state-claims-twin-bombs?fsrc=scn/fb/te/bl/ed/islamicstateclaimstwinbombsinbeirut Hezbollah are fighting against Isis in Syria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4375 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 You've been like a dog with a bone in here today having the same argument with numerous different people. I'll spell it out for you. 1 - I blame the idiots who pull the trigger and detonate the bombs. Killing is wrong in anyone's name 2 - I blame the leaders who have invaded the Middle East for their own gain. They have helped create Al Qaeda/Isis, both directly and indirectly. They fucking provided the guns and trained some of them how to build bombs ffs I don't blame the victims (on both sides) or every Muslim You missed out Islam itself which proves Renton's point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Yeah and you missed out the 80 million who died in the predominantly Christian white man world wars inc the industrial gassing of 6 million Jews. It's about as stupid as blaming Isis solely on Islam as it is blaming the world wars on Christianity. America alone has had 79 wars or interventions since its inception. It's essentially a psychopathic killing machine which kicked off with the genocide of the Native Indians. These are white Christian boys. Edited November 14, 2015 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4375 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Yeah and you missed out the 80 million who died in the predominantly Christian white man world wars inc the industrial gassing of 6 million Jews. It's about as stupid as blaming Isis solely on Islam as it is blaming the world wars on Christianity. America alone has had 79 wars or interventions since its inception. It's essentially a psychopathic killing machine which kicked off with the genocide of the Native Indians. These are white Christian boys. Have white Christian boys been inspired by their faith to travel thousands of miles to fight for the US? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) No they tend not to fight unless the enemy can't defend itself. If it really comes down to it they send the black boys to fight. Anymore stupid ideas? Edited November 14, 2015 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 There is some pretty thinly veiled duplicity going on in here. But we'll have it right today if nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree 4711 Posted November 14, 2015 Author Share Posted November 14, 2015 Aye. Its funny. Almost everything bad happening down here is attributed to the US, the CIA or 'Western imperialism' in general. You'll get tons of people talking about it, whether its terrorism, economic issues or anything else. What I often argue is you've got to leave them alone and bloody concentrate on what our fucking rulers are doing and not doing. Anybody making that sort of argument is quickly labelled a liberal or western sympathizer. Yet when one comes on here or other social media and have similar discussions with people in the west about what their governments are doing, you'll inevitably get called a terrorist apologist or fundamentalist or something of the sort. (Speaking in general, people on this forum are a lot more objective in my experience) Dont know what to make of it. Blood Diamond was a good movie. Was watching it some days back and this debate just reminded me of one of the lines, something like: "We thought we were fighting communism, but it was just about who gets what". Always what I believed. Enjoyed reading your posts today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayvin 5186 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 That's nothing like defending it though is it? The murderers are to blame, I don't think anyone's disagreed with that. My point last night was more in response to the immediate shit on social media about 'Muslims' being at fault and it's time to deport them all. There's no excuse to kill someone. What we have is 2 sides of a divide arguing that each other is in the wrong though. That's never going to change. Blowing up innocent civilians is wrong, whether it's done in Paris or Syria. Murdochs papers will try to convince you that our bombs are for good reasons. Isis will argue the same Absolutely this. It in no way excuses what's happened to admit this. i don't know, my first thought when a story like this breaks isn't to contemplate how western foreign policy has led someone to open fire on a group of random, innocent civilians. it's to think, what a bunch of brainwashed and psychopathic savages. It's important that some people do take that line of thought though, otherwise all we have is a tide of anger flowing towards Muslim communities - which will in turn create more of the same. I'm not saying anyone on here is pointing the finger at all Muslims, but some are pointing at Islam and religion by extension. I personally feel that this would be happening with or without Islam - it's nothing more than a convenient tool for brainwashing, but make no mistake that if it didn't exist, we'd be seeing the same shit happening under the banner of 'pan-Arabism' or something approaching nationalism instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJS 4375 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 No they tend not to fight unless the enemy can't defend itself. If it really comes down to it they send the black boys to fight. Anymore stupid ideas? My point was that declaring the US to be the bid bad is well and good and I agree with you on that but then denying the driving force of the other side is a liberal blindspot. They aren't extremist Muslims - they're actually true to their faith. Sensible Muslims tend to be so despite their faith not because of it - a maxim I apply to all religions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21393 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Yeah and you missed out the 80 million who died in the predominantly Christian white man world wars inc the industrial gassing of 6 million Jews. It's about as stupid as blaming Isis solely on Islam as it is blaming the world wars on Christianity. America alone has had 79 wars or interventions since its inception. It's essentially a psychopathic killing machine which kicked off with the genocide of the Native Indians. These are white Christian boys. Fucking hell man, what have WW1 and 2 got to do with Christianity or the present situation? And America's a psychopathic killing machine? Jesus wept Parky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renton 21393 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 I'll give you the crusades as a Christian war like. Some 700 years ago. Not that I have any need to defend Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) How did Isis start? Stop yourselves if you feel doublethink coming on... Edited November 14, 2015 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) See none of you fuckers have a blind clue about it. Edited November 14, 2015 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorthernsoul 1221 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 Excellent read. http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/11/13/hell-comes-to-paris/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Park Life 71 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Excellent read. http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/11/13/hell-comes-to-paris/ Very good read. Edited November 14, 2015 by Park Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anorthernsoul 1221 Posted November 14, 2015 Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Apparently the bomber at the Stade De France had a ticket but was refused entry. That could have been absolutely horrific. Edited November 14, 2015 by Anorthernsoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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